Some more information about kenyan athletes

I really hope you get that answer soooN!

I am just arrived from Venice and Dublin Marathon (last Sunday and Monday), where I had the two winning ladies (Anne Jelagat in Venice with 2:30:17, and Ruth Kutol in Dublin with 2:27:22 in a very tough Marathon having a very hilly course), and I stay only one day at home before going to NY. So, I apologyze if I'm not able to reply for long time. Anyway, I can find 15 minutes for answering to your quote. When I begin to train a Kenyan athlete, of sure, if he's talented, he's already able running 400m in 53/54 sec, while is yet 16 years old. We have many Kenyans not able running fast among Marathon runners. Many of them, able running 2:07 - 2:10, are not able running under 55 secs in 400m. But you have to think that your max. speed is not connected with your FINAL SPEED. An example, not from a Kenyan. In the past, Italian Alberto Cova was considered unbeatleble in final lap, winning European Ch. '82, World Ch. '83, Olympic Games '84 and Europe Cup '85 (5000 and 10000) with his terrible final kick. In Helsinki '83, he finished with 53.2 last lap. I and his coach Giorgio Rondelli were curious to see his real speed, so, two weeks after WCH, he ran for fun 400m during a local meeting. HE RAN 52.8, almost the same time of his last lap !

So, for example, I'm sure that Stephen Cherono and Nicholas Kemboi are not able running under 50.0, and I think that also Gebre and Bekele are not able running under 50.0. The final sprint in 10000 and also 5000m IS A SPRINT OF AEROBIC RUNNERS, not a sprint OF FAST RUNNERS. If you are an athlete able running 3000m in 8'30" (so, not very good) and you run a 3000m in 10' with Maurice Greene, and then you go for a full final lap free, YOU WIN, NOT MAURICE GREENE. So, the real problem is YOUR ANAEROBIC THRESHOLD LEVEL. The best African runners have a AnT of about 23km per hour, so they are able running under 2'45" per km in Steady-State. It means that, when they run in 28', THEY DON'T USE THEIR ANAEROBIC ENGIN, so when they decide to sprint THEIR SITUATION IS THE SAME OF BEFORE RUNNING.

Different problem is to develop their strenght and muscular power. So, we work very much in that direction, using special Circuits uphill (lasting from 1:30 to 6 min), and expecially we use very much work of short sprints climbing, lasting from 10 to 20 secs (depending on the gradient), for developing SPECIFIC STRENGHT and RECRUITING THE MOST PART OF FIBRES, what normally long runners are not able to do.

So, I can say that 30 % of mileage is for regenerating (very slow, for making the lactate lower), 30 % is for building base (long run at moderate-medium pace), 20-25 % is around the Race Pace, with the goal of improving endurance (so is not important running faster, but running longer : if you go for 20 x 400m with 1 min recovery, your development is 20 x 500m then 20 x 600m or 20 x 400m with only more 30 secs of recovery, at the same speed), 5-10 % is for developing speed (all faster of 10% in relation of race pace is speed), and 5% is for strenght endurance.

RUNNING MIDDLE DISTANCE IS A MATTER OF SPECIFIC ENDURANCE, NOT OF SPEED, but we must understand what endurance means. Very long and slow run is not endurance, is general resistance, good for a beginner, not for a top runner. In every event, final goal is RUNNING LONGER AND FASTER, not only longer and slow, or short and faster.

I will be in NY from Friday evening, may be that I can meet some American friend.

Thanks Renato......what a GREAT post!!!

Mr. Canova,

Thanks a lot for your informative posts!

(...and to the other posters with good feedback)

Mr Canova-

I posted before as "CuriousGeorge" but someone else is using that name...

Thanks for your response. I am sure I will have more questions once I have digested all the great information you have already provided.

We are hoping your athletes will have a good performance at NYC. Good luck.

This is some great info. Insight that I've never really had access to before. Just keeping it on the front page.

Ranato, thanks for a very informative and enjoyable post. You make the comparison between African distance runners and the top Europeans like Jon Brown and Karl Keska who are "finishing top 10" in the Olympic and World championships compared to past middle distance runners like Coe and Ovett who were winning gold medals. However the fact is that these two current athletes have run times that are as fast as other Britons from previous eras. Brown holds the British record of 27.18 (obviously the fastest ever brit), and Keska was the first European in the last Olympic 10k (8th) running the fastest time ever by a Briton in an Olympic 10k final 27.44(2 days after running 27.48 in the prelims) and indeed 10 seconds faster than Brendan Fosters fantastic run for Olympic Bronze in '76. While I conceed that there are no where near as much depth to European and US talent as in past eras, my point in question is that at the top end there are some guys running as well as ever, yet are currently finding themselves a minute behind the best current crop of Africans (26.30's). Is this not a case that the Western runners have maintained but the African runners have dramatically improved especially in the longer races (it is an unfair comparison to compare 10k runners to middle distance guys like Coe/Ovett). The African dominance increases with the duration of event so is this not indicative of physiological/physical differences between Africa and the west as opposed to training differences?? I mean even the best Italians ever who were running just under 27.20 would now find themselves almost a minute back.

It sure would be interesting to see Renato try to make a white European or American kid into an Olympic 5-10k medallist in today's world...

I mean, lots of guys appear able to get Kenyans to great times. Can't be such a big deal. Like nobody thought Einstein's HS teacher was a genius... he woulda learned from the back of a corn flakes box... Know what I'm sayin'?

Also if with some day of delay (as I was in NY), I wish to reply to your post. If you look at the "all-time" lists, you can see that among top 10 there are the following performances (by date) :

800m

1 (81) / 2 (84) / 1 (85) / 1 (96) / 2 (97) / 2 (01) / 1 (02)

1500m

1 (85) / 1 (95) / 3 (97) / 1 (98) / 1 (00) / 3 (01)

5000m

1 (96) / 2 (97) / 1 (98) / 3 (00) / 3 (03)

10000m

1 (96) / 2 (97) / 1 (98) / 1 (99) / 3 (02) / 2 (03)

3000SC

4 (97) / 1 (00) / 2 (01) / 3 (03)

So, you can see that in longer distances the best performances are in the last 6-7 years.

However, the first athlete breaking 27:00 was Ondieki in '93, and at that time Antibo could run under 27:00 with correct pacers in a tranquil race.

In steeple, already in '76 (27 years ago !) Garderud was able running 8'08" and Malinowski 8'09", and Panetta ran 8'08" winning WCH in Rome '87 jogging last 30m (having 40m of gap in the last furlong), demonstrating that was possible running in 8'05" or less already 16 years ago.

In 5000m, Dieter Baumann ran 12'54" in '97. And what about Moorcroft, world record holder with 13'00"41 in '82 (21 years ago ?).

Do you know when European Record were obtained ?

800m in '97 (Kipketer), but '81 by a European (Coe)

1500m in '97) (Cacho)

5000m in 2000 (Mourhit) but in '97 by a European (Baumann)

10000m in 2000 (Mourhit) but in '84 by a European (Mamede) practically equalled by Pinto in '99

3000SC in 2002 (Vroemen) and 2003 (Tahri)

Performances that 20-30 years ago were normal for European people (and also American : think of Johnny Gray, Barbosa, David Mack in 800m, Cram, Coe, Ovett, Spivey, Steve Scott in 1500, Moorcroft and Maree in 5000m, Mamede, Lopes, Antibo, Cova, Nenow, Salazar in 10000m, Mahmoud, Rowland, Panetta, Lambruschini, Garderud, Malinowski, Baumgartl, Maminski, Marsh, Croghan, Wesolowski in steeple), now are an exception, and always in a fast race dominated by African runners, while many years ago our athletes were the winners.

So, if is true that African runners were able to improve (but I think that Kenyans of 20 years ago were better than Kenyan of today : the difference is in more professionality and more selection today, because now running is a business, before was a pleasure), is more true that our technological society doesn't seem able to produce now the same talent of many years ago.

Speaking about middle-distance, we are now living a come-back to illiteracy, forgetting all what we learnt before.

New generations have no hystorical memory, and think that what happen today is all what is possible to do. That's the reason because many talk about doping also regarding normal performances, "deja vou" in the past without any particular assistance.

If Ron Clarke was able running in 27'39" in 1965 (38 years ago !) and at the moment no US runners are able running so fast, is because Kenyans are doped ? You understand how stupid thought is this one, and how much limited it is for the development of your activity.

Europe has yet Jon Brown, Keska, Vroemen, some Spanish, but we must recognize that they are not real number one, like were our top runners in the past.

The current generation talks about AMUSEMENT every time. Our world pushes for living every kind of amusement, that means TO ESCAPE FROM A LIFE THAT PEOPLE DON'T LIKE. Now is very difficult to find ideals, and there is no more the taste of winning something using your own ability.

In 1960, Herbert Elliot (22 years old) won OG beating the World Record with 3'35"6. That one was the last race of his career.

For winning Olympics, he took holidays from his job, beeing OG in September, and working Elliot as the most part of normal people.

At that time, there were three possibilities for using your time : for a job (and all people worked for living), for fun, for doing something that was your passion. So, not beeing possible to do well all the three activities, PASSION HAD TO COINCIDE WITH FUN, so every athlete spent his time working and training (and, of course, competing) without thinking about other amusements, because ATHLETICS ITSELF WAS A FUN.

Now, nobody wants to forgo the amusement, SO ATHLETES WANT THAT TRAINING AND COMPETING COINCIDE WITH THEIR JOB.

Young people speak about "big sacrifices" for training, forgoing many types of amusements with great regrets.

This is a way to look at athletics activity not "positive". The motivation and the pleasure to reach some results in an activity that you love must be greater than the regret of what you don't do.

This is not an African attitude. Who wants to succeed, during the period of his activity is concentrated only in training and in competing, and doesn't lack other activities.

So, western athletes have too much waste of concentration in their activity, because that one is our lifestyle.

This is the reason because I cannot train a white runner for winning a medal in OG (also if, for example, Sergey Lebid was silver in WCCCh two years ago).

But someone has to think that, if it's easy for a coach of Kenyans to win races against white runners, is not so easy to win against other african runners... That one is the current challenge for testing your methodology.

You shared a lot of thoughts. Thank you.

Are you saying that white people need to have more fun and enjoy their sport and not think of it as a way to make money?

Renato,

You F#(@ascinate Me!

Has anybody bought Renato's book from IAAF yet?

I'm thinking of getting it, but you have to get in via Monaco, I think.

Great post, Renato - keep them coming...

Do you have a link to the book?

i have searched the iaaf site and could not find it.

Go to IAAF.org

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DV 50 Scientific Training for the Marathon (Enrico Arcelli and Renato Canova) (English) 8.00

A message to ALAN WEBB:

Go train with Renato!

Renato-

You see what many seem unable to grasp. Before the white man can take on the Africans, he must first reproduce the depth that he has produced in prior generations.

Statistically speaking, there are just not as many American/Europeans running at the same time levels as in the past. Couple this with the fact that the top-end times have improved somewhat dramatically, and the result is a deficit of medals for the white man...

Americans and Europeans cannot start worrying about the problem of challenging the Africans until they have a number of runners at the range of a Croghan or a Kennedy. If America had 10 Mark Croghans, isn't it plausible that on a good day, one of them might run sub 8:00 for steeple? Particularly if they have to run against each other all year??? When a Kenyan wants to avoid Kenyan competition, the only escape is to go to the NCAA (I'm not implying that the Kenyan NCAA guys are on the run from competition...please don't infer that). The converse of that is that Americans must leave America just to get the stiffest competition...how many are doing that???

How many Americans racing today are as consistent and tough as Mark Croghan? How many Americans today go out in a race and GO FOR IT like Croghan did?

Answer: few if any.

When the majority of elite American and European runners train hard, race tough like Croghan and Kennedy, and believe in themselves, AND have to contend with each other just to make the team...THEN the Africans will have something to worry about.

It won't take as long as you think. American distance runners are already experimenting with the training with some remarkable successes (think Culpepper 2:09 marathon debut). When enough of these performances start occurring, there will be a critical mass where the runners will HAVE to come up with good performances just to make the national teams. When we send a guy with a GOOD time to the Olympics, he will believe he has a chance. In 1500m, often our Trials winner has to go get a qualifier just to go to the games...clearly they cannot think they have a chance in these circumstances...with that kind of outlook going in, the results are easily predictable.

Renato,

Much of what you say about the attitude of current westerners is no doubt true. But it is too glib. You see, you're not talking to the masses here, or generalizing on television for a non-sporting audience. You're writing on arguably the most read distance running forum in the world. You're among the running geeks, here. Old and young. So you're glib response that westerners don't want it enough won't wash. Unless, of course, you're including everyone on here.

Why don't you just say, right, I Renato am going to do something about this thing. I would like one (or some) volunteers (and you can set the qualifying standard criteria) and I am going to train him/them to become top athletes. You don't have to do it publicly, by posting the specific training advice online, you can email the guy(s) back and forth. But you'll name him/them and we will all keep an eye on his steady progress. Say 2-3 years free unlimited training. If they do not do exactly as you say at all times, kick 'em out.

I refuse to accept your slick reply that no white runner "wants" it enough. I'm sure many young studs on here would just love to be coached by someone with credentials such as yours. We know you don't need the money, so why not put something back into the sport we all love and show the western world that it is still possible to take a white runner and get him on the 5-10k podium at the Olympics or World Champs?

Set the qualifying standards and ask for volunteers for one-on-one coaching to the elite world-class level (and we can use malmo's patented definition of what that is).

If you get no takers. Not one single guy (or girl) who'll take you up on this generous offer, and do everything you say, all-or-nothing, I will agree you were right. That we no longer want it enough. I also swear I'll never visit this board again.

Believer, you have missed out one fundamental assumption. Renato has at his disposal and that is willing subjects. Three atheltes are not going to do it. He probably has 500 kids who show some sort of natural ability and unlike in western countries he can pick and chose the absolute most talented kids and opportunity that he presents to them will be taken up as the promise of riches beyond there wildest expectaions becomes a reality + no doubt parents and relatives would put an abnormal amount of pressure on these kids to become a bread winner for the family.

Statistically speaking you already get a higher % of gifted athletes in a normal population pool in these countries and in the western and diet and natural conditions all add to these. Put these kids though intense training and you get a natural drop out rate as you would in the west and then you are left with an elite bunch of athletes who have are truly elite as they have been tested againt the best of the best.

A lot of western athletes, especially distance athletes are very rarely the most talented ones as these kids gets pulled into other more popular sports or get side tracked by education , sony playstation etc etc and only a handful go on to be really competitive.

having trained with loads of athletes I can say that only two really went on to be world standard and you are talking about possibly a 1000 athletes that came and went over the years.

In Kenya that number could possibly be 10 000 and statistically speaking you are getting the best returns on the biggest input. I honestly belive its that simple.

Renatos claim about philosphy etc is merely an extension of what you would feel like turning up to a low key meet and running aginst some ameteur athletes who you know you will beat because you come from a better training system than they do and you have beaten those below you. Confidence!!