Why shouldn't a white American run as fast as the best Africans?

We've been laughing at that fraud's PC stance on everything for weeks. Ignore him. He's one of those wishy washy sissy white guys who feel strong and gets wood from running down whites every chance he gets.

You are correct in noting he missed the point of the whole thread. But he always does that type of thing. Ignore him and his whiny PC rambles. I admit it is fun to put him on the spot, though.

It's correct to believe that there is at least one guy in the US with the innate ability to run as fast as the Ethiopians - and if they are on drugs, he'd probably need the same drugs to match them. Given Hermen's background, I've had little doubt he's doped these guys to the hilt. I think a far higher percentage of the Kenyans are clean, unless they're involved with Rosa and his associates. That part of the world has a lot of distance running talent, just like Slavic regions are loaded with guys who have incredible power and strength. It's in the genes. But there is crossover. So one area might put up one guy in a million with the ability to run 3:26 if trained. Another might have 5 or 10 of those people per million, if trained. It's a numbers game, and the Africans (including North Africa)have numbers plus a lot of people giving the sport an honest try. Not so anywhere else.

Quote from Mr. Marathon

I will add that there are certain pockets of people in certain areas of the world that in general seem to have better physical traits for ditance running, such as a small (light) bone structure and narrow hips. And there are pockets people who and live in conditions that help develop other physical traits such as lung capacity. When these two pockets overlap you will get a higher than normal density of people who have natural talent (physical disposition) for a certain sport (i.e distance running, sprinting, etc.) It appears obvious that this is the case in the Rift Valley in East Africa for Distance Running.

But do not confuse coming from this area with being a prerequisite. Many other of people will have these same or similar physical dispositions (talents) living all around the world. The only thing that makes these pocket of people special will be the density of talent.

Similarly there are pockets of people in the world who because of there life style and society will be more likely to be mentally tough and disciplined (parts of Japan for example). This doesn't mean that in order to be mentally tough you have to be from there. Just the density of people who are is probably greater there.

Hard Work / Work Ethic is similar, there are groups of people who are very use to hard manual work and have great work ethics. You can find hard workers all over the world but certain groups (pockets of people) tend to have higher density of this trait.

Thanks to the information age the other component "Great coaching/program/philosophy" is more easily attainable then ever before. Its not easily attainable for some but is more easily attainable then it was 20+ yars ago.

So the whole "why can't white Americans run as fast the East Africans" question is BS. There are people in most every country that have the necessary physical and psychological traits to be world class in distance running. The density of these people may just be higher in some places than others.[/quote]

The thread should have stopped with this guy's post. He nailed this one.

The last two posts have hit some nails on the head. I won't go into the drug stuff because I don't know enough about them. Good logic.

I think Malmo said something like this on another thread: What if Ryan Hall hadn't had a breakout year as a senior in college? What if, say, he had caught his foot on a root on one of his runs, sprained his ankle, and lost his senior track season? What if he had then gotten a job and gotten on with his life like so many others? If someone had then said that Hall had the potential to run under one hour for the half-marathon, every sane person on Earth would have called them a lunatic whackjob. And yet...

And no top-100 list, nor genetic theory, nor insistence that white men can't run, can convince me that Ryan Hall is the only Ryan Hall.

While I normally agree with malmo 100%, here's where he and I disagree.1) I agree with him that most people don't come anywhere near their level of greatness -- based on what I now know, I'm certain I could have run faster at all distances from the 800 up to 50 miles...just wasn't training as well as I could have.2) I disagree though that everyone is born with the tools. How can that possibly be true? If this were true, are we just saying that Geb trained harder or smarter than everyone else for such a long time? I don't believe that for a minute. Sure he trained hard, but it's WHAT he trained with that enabled him to dominate for years. Genetically superior when it comes to running.3) Also, I disagree with that saying of his that the more you train the more talented you become. Talent is never changing. Ability changes. Now, I can see how you could use his statement to mean that no one (including the person training) knew how talented he was until he did all the training, so if that's how malmo means it, then I'm fine with it, but if you take it literally, then no I don't agree with it.

omurphy21 wrote:

Give me a f***ing break. I've always worked my ass off. I've always had so much confidence that I could run great times. I improved a lot, and then my improvement levelled off long before I even ran close to world class or even national class times. Why is it that I haven't achieved my lofty goals? I've had confidence, great training, and a ton of hardwork. According to you I should be competing with Bekele by now.

I don't know, what were you really aiming for?

I know what I am aiming for and I know how to get it. Do you actually know what you are doing and why you are doing it?

Your post has a quizzical tone to it as though you can't understand why it's not working for you. When we reach a plateau, we have to change the training, add something that you weren't doing before. If it works for me, why wouldn't it work for you?

*********************************************************

We had one of those kids in our class at school. He killed everyone who ever raced him in a 5,000 cc race.

We had our lung capacities measured in Biology class. His was 6.1 litres, mine was 3.1 litres. He has man size lungs at the age of 13.

Now my lung capacity is 6.25 litres. He was simply an early developer.

I wasn't put off by this, it just made me more determined to improve.

A lot of people are easily put off by what they percieve to be a lack of physical talent. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

talent is hard work wrote:A lot of people are easily put off by what they percieve to be a lack of physical talent. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

You can definitely take it too far. You never know how high your ceiling is until you try to find it, so train and train and train some more. BUT, the reason why people who do that (and there are TONS) yet don't reach elite levels has to do with genetic talent. Those who make it don't want it more or have more guts or train harder or smarter. Sure there are some who showed minimal talent early on and developed into national class runners (Wejo), but it just took him a lot longer to hit his ceiling, and no disrepect intended, but 28:06 doesn't get you anywhere on the international scene.

The existence of talent is by far the No. 1 thing regarding whether or not someone makes it as an elite runner; all runners who want to become elite train hard and eat right and do all the things they're supposed to.

The difference bewteen 28:06 and 26:17?...different level of TALENT.

talent is hard work wrote:

I don't know, what were you really aiming for?

He was aiming to be as fast as he possibly could, OBVIOUSLY.

I know what I am aiming for and I know how to get it.

Really? What are YOU aiming for? Be specific.

Your post has a quizzical tone to it as though you can't understand why it's not working for you.

That might have something to do with the fact that he's asking a question there, Genius. Only it's a rhetorical question. He DOES know why it's not working for him. You're the one who refuses to understand.

When we reach a plateau, we have to change the training, add something that you weren't doing before. If it works for me, why wouldn't it work for you?

Bekele didn't plateau at, say, 5:10 / mile pace for a 10k. He was great almost as soon as he started running. You know why? Because he was born with so much talent he didn't need to.

The world is full of people who do it right, who know what they are doing and why they are doing it, who work their asses off and who never come close to an elite level. Because they just lack the talent. Period. End of discussion.

The ability people to deny what is staring them in the face is staggering.

Perhaps I didn't communicate very well? I said, "Very few people ever come anywhere near that level that would be their ultimate success. Everyone is born with the physical tools that will allow it." I thought that was clear? No? Geb was born with the tools to get to his ultimate level. He used them. You were born with the tools to get to your ultimate level. You didn't use them.

It's a metaphor. I thought that was obvious. Through training you discover talents you previously didn't know you had. Get it? Apply the metaphor to other disciplines, music, academics, etc..

When I was in high school I can guarantee you that no one ever thought that in four years time I'd become one of the top milers in the country. Not enough foot speed. In fact, after my sophomore year in college, no sane person would of thunk it. The more I trained for it, the more talented I became.

Over three decades of observation has led me to the conclusion that the great majority of athletes in our sport are not giving themselves an honest chance to discover what or where their talents really are. I've seen it in the field, I read it here on this message board every week. Their focus is on every gimmick and every trend that comes down the pike. They dwell on the things they cannot control -- "someone (Africans, Moroccans, Chaka-Khans) are more talented than me." -- and constantly look for ways to avoid the things they CAN control. "What/who is the least ... lowest... fewest .... shortest...easiest... way," they ask here, over and over. The end result is they focus on extraneous issues at the expense of the things that really matter: commitment, persistence and mastering the basics.

Athletic training is not a passive activity. Thinking about running will never be a substitution for running.

Ok malmo, I guess I then continue to agree with you just about 100% of the time. Thanks for the clarification.[still don't like the "the more I trained the more talented I became" bit though simply because too many people will not understand its meaning as you mean it to be]

I'm a "crybaby" ?? What the hell am I crying about? YOU are and idiot. There is nothing "PC" at all about what I am saying. I heading down the slippery slope where others like you JUMP at the chance of saying to me: " yes, I will give you that people with different ancestries are different from one another genetically . And that explains why there are so many more WHITE billionaires and WHITE famous scientists, etc, because WHITES ARE SMARTER" (that's YOU talking, not me, if you didn't understand). I am offering a solid opinion backed by much data and logic and YOU DON'T LIKE IT because it happens to suggest that people with recent African ancestry are better runners than people not of recent African ancestry. If I came to the conclusions that whites were naturally faster....you'd eat it up. But there is ZERO reason to come to that conclusion.

I never said Ryan Hall WAS on drugs or that no Africans were on drugs. You can't read very well, can you?? I said IF.....IF he was, he could still never do what a clean or drugged Bekele was done. Either way, he couldn't come close, because he is not as talented. On his best days, he will do some great things, but his career will be aeons behind Bekele's. And Hall is clearly one of our absolutely most talented runners. It was a simple point....you missed it.

Alright Lancelot, I'll calmly, lovingly take this one little step at a time:

Hall is not as talented as Bekele, aeons behind Bekele....your words....

How far back behind Bekele is a solo 59:43 Half? Is it REALLY FAR BACK? Or is it PRETTY CLOSE ACTUALLY?

Discuss.

59:43, Lancelot. Geb, the Greatest, did about 50sec faster, with some help.

Forget drugs. Forget skin colour....I know that will be hard to do. Look at the PERFORMANCE.

And look at the title of this thread....Yeah, why shouldn't they indeed.

alright dumbass, after looking at PURELY THE PERFORMANCES, i will conclude that people of east african descent have far more inherited talent than people of other countries.

...and people who live in New York City watch more movies than people in Nepal.

Next?

Steel Reserve wrote:

alright dumbass, after looking at PURELY THE PERFORMANCES, i will conclude that people of east african descent have far more inherited talent than people of other countries.

Gee, is that Sir Lancelot? CAPITALS and all?

a) he hasn't run "AS FAST" as Geb, Tergat, or how fast Bekele could if he ran 1/2 marathon IN HIS PRIME AND FOCUSED ON IT. I certainly think Bekele, if he had been aiming for a 1/2 marathon in the last few years, or Geb had in his PEAK, they both could have run 58:30. That's not a stretch at all. Maybe Hall will run better than what he just did. But he's still not "as fast as the best Africans," is he???

b) I think the East Africans are best at 3k-12k (xc). No "white americans" are even CLOSE to being "as fast as the best Africans" in these events. But even in the 800-marathon, no "white americans" are "as fast as the best Africans", are they??

(Hey, even in the 100,200, and 400, only Warniner and Rock are as fast as the best "Africans".....if one means people of West African descent. But I guess that is really a different topic (white euro-Americans vs black west Africans in the sprints)

So it has not occured, and it is not occuring. COULD it occur? Sure, I guess we could produce ONE specimen that ranked up there with Bekele and Geb and Tergat. Do you REALLY see it happening though? No. Again, one race does not make a career. To match what Bekele and Geb have done, Hall would have to run about THIRTY more races of a quality quite a bit BETTER than what he just did in the 1/2 marathon. So he is still a long way from being "as fast" (overall) as the "best Africans."

But maybe he will run 26:20 for 10k and 2:04 for the marathon and shut my trap! I'd be blown away if he did. But I am still blown away by his 1/2 marathon. GOOD LUCK TO HIM!!

Wow. What a thread. Actually, Hall has run faster than a lot of Africans at the half. What makes you think this race is his prime focus?

Relax. There's talent everywhere. Don't let your sociology professors dominate your thinking in all areas.

I swear, I've seen a shift at letsrun. A year ago these discussions were dominated by the "They Are Naturally Better" crowd. Now there are more and more Believers, I think.