Look at the garbage blowing on the track at the start of the video. It is literally WHIPPING straight down the direction of the finishing straight. Not to mention the hair and clothes of the spectators, almost blowing right off. (Hilarious that you referred to this video!)
And guess what....no wind reading in the results lolol. Not even a record-legal time.
How embarrassing for you to have appealed to "lousy weather" when this was so obviously wind-aided. You were either dishonest or ignorant. Which was it?
In this instance, he demonstrates he is blind. And lies and obfuscation are his shields. The wind is generally noted in results when it goes over the allowable. Again, you are a jealous moron.
Haha. Before the start, pieces of garbage are literally WHIPPING down the stretch in the wind, which is so strong that the spectators' clothes are also BILLOWING in the wind.
You can HEAR it howling in the video!
Not sure what seeing wind has to do with being jealous!
I actually don’t think anything he’s posted is unreasonable or inaccurate. It’s simply based on limited information.
CL ran that low 22 two years ago when his 400 PR was a full second slower than his 46.3 PR last year and almost two seconds slower with the mostly 48s he ran all season two years ago.
Moreover, all we know is that the 21.8 w a running start was a “workout PR.” We don’t know what CL was actually capable of on the day fresh, rested, in a much better lane, and with competition. We have no clue. It’s incomplete information, but he certainly wasn’t “all out.”
So everyone is guessing. I stand by my thoughts that CL is capable of 21.5-21.8, right now without focusing exclusively on trying to work on his 100/200 “PRs.”
21.8 is only 22-mid out of the blocks. Nothing about that says he can carve a full second off that. You understand nothing about sprints if you think that is feasible.
Smart post.
21.8 flying start is 22.6 from the blocks, GENEROUSLY.
21.5 is FIVE PERCENT FASTER than 22.6.
OF COURSE he would be faster if he hadn't finished 1500m of high-rest 800-pace work 8 minutes prior.
But no, NOT 5% faster.
NOTHING about a 21.8 post-workout max flyer suggests that 21.5 FAT is happening. This is 101 stuff here.
It’s silly to try to say he’s a lot slower than a time he did in a workout.
400m in 55.8 200m in 26.3 300m in 38.9 200m in 25.3 200m in 24.8 200m in 24.6 200m in 21.8
He’s AT LEAST a second faster. I’ve done similar workouts.
Now do it with the MASSIVE recoveries noted:
400m-200m (6 min rest) 300m-200m (7 min rest) 200m-200m (8 min rest) 200m
55.8/26.3 38.9/25.3 24.8/24.6 21.8
The flying 200 TT came a full 8 minutes after 400m of work... ...which came 7 minutes after 500m of work... ...which came 6 minutes after 600m of work. (And the first 400 was SLOW.)
To be clear, this is a GREAT workout. Totally appropriate recoveries for someone peaking for an 800 championship. And an "ego flyer" afterward is nice. Good coaching.
But it is not as if he just came off of say 4x400 @800 with 4:00 rest.
I'd give a runner 0.6-0.7s faster for the 200 in a meet context vs after this workout.
A flying 200 at the end of a workout is a flying 200 at the end of the workout. I don't think it says much in terms of what he can do in a 200m race. As a mid-mid-distance runner I could routinely run 23.5 in a flying 200 at the end of workouts, but my 100m best FAT was 11.9 something.
Smart post.
A flying 23.5 is basically a 24.3 FAT 200 from the blocks.
You haven't understood what I was saying. Jakob was the favorite in the Paris 1500. He failed to medal in his main event. Hocker failed to qualify for the 1500 final in the last wc because he ran like an idiot. He was also the favorite for the US indoors 1500 title and finished out of the places. This says that nothing is certain in sports and not when it is claimed that "the gold is his for the taking", as it has been for Lutkenhaus. He may take it. He may not.
Unfortunately I just know more is somewhat right in that if you were to plop the 21.8 into a race, it would probably be a 22.5 or so, that being said, while looking at the video he doesn't look as strained as your supposed to be in an all out 200 while letting up at the line (probably worth 0.3) and did it as the end of a workout (worth anywhere from 0.5-1 second), that would lead me to believe his expected shape for 200m would be 21.4 or so.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
A few comparisons show how this 21.8 flying 200 is being greatly overestimated. As has been pointed out, it is a considerably slower FAT conversion. He will be faster in a race and not at the end of a training session but this isn't an endurance distance, it's a measure of his speed. So he won't be a lot faster. Half a second over 200m is a lot, a full second suggests he was only jogging 21.8. He wasn't.
22 secs is a fairly typical 800 runner speed. Snell ran 22-low but on modern tracks and with modern shoes he would have been close to 22-flat. Yet he said in his era he was one of the slowest in an Olympic final. George Kerr (3rd in Rome) was a 21 sec runner, and Bill Crothers (second at Tokyo) was similar, a 46 sec 400 runner. Go back to Melbourne '56 and the 800 gold medallist and world record holder over 880 yards, Tom Courtney, was a 21 sec runner. Serious sprint speed in an 800 runner was Juantorena, who clocked 20.7 over the 200. But he was also a 400 gold medallist.
Amongst great md runners Ovett is credited with 21.7 and although there isn't a confirmed time for Coe he ran a 400 relay leg in 45-mid which suggests he was at least a 21-mid 200 runner.
Lutkenhaus is an incredibly gifted teenager but his sprint speed in the context and history of the event doesn't appear to be exceptional and this 21.8 flying start run doesn't say otherwise. If he was a 1500 runner it would be more impressive.
George Kerr (3rd in Rome) was a 21 sec runner, and Bill Crothers (second at Tokyo) was similar, a 46 sec 400 runner. Go back to Melbourne '56 and the 800 gold medallist and world record holder over 880 yards, Tom Courtney, was a 21 sec runner.
A few comparisons show how this 21.8 flying 200 is being greatly overestimated. As has been pointed out, it is a considerably slower FAT conversion. He will be faster in a race and not at the end of a training session but this isn't an endurance distance, it's a measure of his speed. So he won't be a lot faster. Half a second over 200m is a lot, a full second suggests he was only jogging 21.8. He wasn't.
22 secs is a fairly typical 800 runner speed. Snell ran 22-low but on modern tracks and with modern shoes he would have been close to 22-flat. Yet he said in his era he was one of the slowest in an Olympic final. George Kerr (3rd in Rome) was a 21 sec runner, and Bill Crothers (second at Tokyo) was similar, a 46 sec 400 runner. Go back to Melbourne '56 and the 800 gold medallist and world record holder over 880 yards, Tom Courtney, was a 21 sec runner. Serious sprint speed in an 800 runner was Juantorena, who clocked 20.7 over the 200. But he was also a 400 gold medallist.
Amongst great md runners Ovett is credited with 21.7 and although there isn't a confirmed time for Coe he ran a 400 relay leg in 45-mid which suggests he was at least a 21-mid 200 runner.
Lutkenhaus is an incredibly gifted teenager but his sprint speed in the context and history of the event doesn't appear to be exceptional and this 21.8 flying start run doesn't say otherwise. If he was a 1500 runner it would be more impressive.
A tually, his 46.03 PB (after a 1:47 in the same meet) is exceptional in the history of the event, given his age at the time (16). Other greats posting similar performances were much older. The knows guy is a mental case and needa help, what with all the extraneous bs and outright lies he’s filled the thread with. He comes off as another guy who’s jealous of a talented youngster. Hopefully Lutkenhaus continues to improve.
George Kerr (3rd in Rome) was a 21 sec runner, and Bill Crothers (second at Tokyo) was similar, a 46 sec 400 runner. Go back to Melbourne '56 and the 800 gold medallist and world record holder over 880 yards, Tom Courtney, was a 21 sec runner.
So Hocker is a 3:45 runner. Thanks for conceding.
Not in the context of a discussion of records, when the full time is necessary to distinguish it from other performances. He is nearly 3 seconds off the outdoor world mile record, not 2 seconds (and also behind the indoor fastest time). You can't make him faster than he is.
Also the times I referred to above were 21-flat and 46-flat. Not 21.94, or 46.94.
It’s silly to try to say he’s a lot slower than a time he did in a workout.
400m in 55.8 200m in 26.3 300m in 38.9 200m in 25.3 200m in 24.8 200m in 24.6 200m in 21.8
He’s AT LEAST a second faster. I’ve done similar workouts.
Now do it with the MASSIVE recoveries noted:
400m-200m (6 min rest) 300m-200m (7 min rest) 200m-200m (8 min rest) 200m
55.8/26.3 38.9/25.3 24.8/24.6 21.8
The flying 200 TT came a full 8 minutes after 400m of work... ...which came 7 minutes after 500m of work... ...which came 6 minutes after 600m of work. (And the first 400 was SLOW.)
To be clear, this is a GREAT workout. Totally appropriate recoveries for someone peaking for an 800 championship. And an "ego flyer" afterward is nice. Good coaching.
But it is not as if he just came off of say 4x400 @800 with 4:00 rest.
I'd give a runner 0.6-0.7s faster for the 200 in a meet context vs after this workout.
It’s rather quick for a 200 rep at the end of a fatiguing workout. If you had ever actually trained and raced at a decent level you would underatand this. You seem rather bitter. Is it Lutkenhaus’s youth that bothers you?
A few comparisons show how this 21.8 flying 200 is being greatly overestimated. As has been pointed out, it is a considerably slower FAT conversion. He will be faster in a race and not at the end of a training session but this isn't an endurance distance, it's a measure of his speed. So he won't be a lot faster. Half a second over 200m is a lot, a full second suggests he was only jogging 21.8. He wasn't.
22 secs is a fairly typical 800 runner speed. Snell ran 22-low but on modern tracks and with modern shoes he would have been close to 22-flat. Yet he said in his era he was one of the slowest in an Olympic final. George Kerr (3rd in Rome) was a 21 sec runner, and Bill Crothers (second at Tokyo) was similar, a 46 sec 400 runner. Go back to Melbourne '56 and the 800 gold medallist and world record holder over 880 yards, Tom Courtney, was a 21 sec runner. Serious sprint speed in an 800 runner was Juantorena, who clocked 20.7 over the 200. But he was also a 400 gold medallist.
Amongst great md runners Ovett is credited with 21.7 and although there isn't a confirmed time for Coe he ran a 400 relay leg in 45-mid which suggests he was at least a 21-mid 200 runner.
Lutkenhaus is an incredibly gifted teenager but his sprint speed in the context and history of the event doesn't appear to be exceptional and this 21.8 flying start run doesn't say otherwise. If he was a 1500 runner it would be more impressive.
A tually, his 46.03 PB (after a 1:47 in the same meet) is exceptional in the history of the event, given his age at the time (16). Other greats posting similar performances were much older. The knows guy is a mental case and needa help, what with all the extraneous bs and outright lies he’s filled the thread with. He comes off as another guy who’s jealous of a talented youngster. Hopefully Lutkenhaus continues to improve.
The thread isn't about whether he's an exceptional 800 runner - he is, and especially so considering his age - but what his 21.8 flying start says about his sprint speed. It doesn't say that is exceptional for a top 800 runner.
400m-200m (6 min rest) 300m-200m (7 min rest) 200m-200m (8 min rest) 200m
55.8/26.3 38.9/25.3 24.8/24.6 21.8
The flying 200 TT came a full 8 minutes after 400m of work... ...which came 7 minutes after 500m of work... ...which came 6 minutes after 600m of work. (And the first 400 was SLOW.)
To be clear, this is a GREAT workout. Totally appropriate recoveries for someone peaking for an 800 championship. And an "ego flyer" afterward is nice. Good coaching.
But it is not as if he just came off of say 4x400 @800 with 4:00 rest.
I'd give a runner 0.6-0.7s faster for the 200 in a meet context vs after this workout.
It’s rather quick for a 200 rep at the end of a fatiguing workout. If you had ever actually trained and raced at a decent level you would underatand this. You seem rather bitter. Is it Lutkenhaus’s youth that bothers you?
It is "rather quick" but it means nothing about the claims that he possesses another full second over the 200 up his sleeve - or in his legs. I don't care how fast he runs, I'm only interested in being realistic about what this run shows. Fans easily lose sight of these things.
Not in the context of a discussion of records, when the full time is necessary to distinguish it from other performances. He is nearly 3 seconds off the outdoor world mile record, not 2 seconds (and also behind the indoor fastest time). You can't make him faster than he is.
Also the times I referred to above were 21-flat and 46-flat. Not 21.94, or 46.94.
No one is discussing records here, drongo. If Kerr is a 21 sec runner, Hocker is a 3:45 runner.
Not in the context of a discussion of records, when the full time is necessary to distinguish it from other performances. He is nearly 3 seconds off the outdoor world mile record, not 2 seconds (and also behind the indoor fastest time). You can't make him faster than he is.
Also the times I referred to above were 21-flat and 46-flat. Not 21.94, or 46.94.
No one is discussing records here, drongo. If Kerr is a 21 sec runner, Hocker is a 3:45 runner.
Kerr ran 21-flat, not 21.94. If he did I would say he is effectively a 22 sec guy. Like Hocker is effectively a 3:46 miler. 6/100 sec don't make a significant difference in that context. "Sub-3:46" only by a whisker.
A few comparisons show how this 21.8 flying 200 is being greatly overestimated. As has been pointed out, it is a considerably slower FAT conversion. He will be faster in a race and not at the end of a training session but this isn't an endurance distance, it's a measure of his speed. So he won't be a lot faster. Half a second over 200m is a lot, a full second suggests he was only jogging 21.8. He wasn't.
22 secs is a fairly typical 800 runner speed. Snell ran 22-low but on modern tracks and with modern shoes he would have been close to 22-flat. Yet he said in his era he was one of the slowest in an Olympic final. George Kerr (3rd in Rome) was a 21 sec runner, and Bill Crothers (second at Tokyo) was similar, a 46 sec 400 runner. Go back to Melbourne '56 and the 800 gold medallist and world record holder over 880 yards, Tom Courtney, was a 21 sec runner. Serious sprint speed in an 800 runner was Juantorena, who clocked 20.7 over the 200. But he was also a 400 gold medallist.
Amongst great md runners Ovett is credited with 21.7 and although there isn't a confirmed time for Coe he ran a 400 relay leg in 45-mid which suggests he was at least a 21-mid 200 runner.
Lutkenhaus is an incredibly gifted teenager but his sprint speed in the context and history of the event doesn't appear to be exceptional and this 21.8 flying start run doesn't say otherwise. If he was a 1500 runner it would be more impressive.
Well, this is the first post where you’ve at least conceded “He will be faster in a race and not at the end of a training session…”. Before you said it being at the end of a training session didn't indicate he could run faster when fresh - at all.
It’s just most of us know you don’t run your fastest sprints in March of your freshman year or April of your sophomore when you aren’t even doing your heaviest speed work.
Cooper ran 22.12 with a cross wind, a slight tailwind but mostly ran into the wind the first 100m.
He split 45.3r running 22.2 / 23.1 in April. Three months before running 1:42.2. The questions most of us ask are: had he run a 400m at USATF instead of an 800m, how fast would he have run.
An 800m runner will have an unlimited number of attempts to prove 800m fitness, but a limited number of attempts to prove off distance fitness.
At the end of the day the exercise is futile because you aren’t able to extrapolate. And I get your point of view. To you, the time is the time, 21.8 with a flying start, a 22.12 two years ago, or a 45.3 in April are what they are. Conditions can be perfect, snow, or a hailstorm - conditions don’t matter to you because your brain is incapable of nuance.
A few comparisons show how this 21.8 flying 200 is being greatly overestimated. As has been pointed out, it is a considerably slower FAT conversion. He will be faster in a race and not at the end of a training session but this isn't an endurance distance, it's a measure of his speed. So he won't be a lot faster. Half a second over 200m is a lot, a full second suggests he was only jogging 21.8. He wasn't.
22 secs is a fairly typical 800 runner speed. Snell ran 22-low but on modern tracks and with modern shoes he would have been close to 22-flat. Yet he said in his era he was one of the slowest in an Olympic final. George Kerr (3rd in Rome) was a 21 sec runner, and Bill Crothers (second at Tokyo) was similar, a 46 sec 400 runner. Go back to Melbourne '56 and the 800 gold medallist and world record holder over 880 yards, Tom Courtney, was a 21 sec runner. Serious sprint speed in an 800 runner was Juantorena, who clocked 20.7 over the 200. But he was also a 400 gold medallist.
Amongst great md runners Ovett is credited with 21.7 and although there isn't a confirmed time for Coe he ran a 400 relay leg in 45-mid which suggests he was at least a 21-mid 200 runner.
Lutkenhaus is an incredibly gifted teenager but his sprint speed in the context and history of the event doesn't appear to be exceptional and this 21.8 flying start run doesn't say otherwise. If he was a 1500 runner it would be more impressive.
Well, this is the first post where you’ve at least conceded “He will be faster in a race and not at the end of a training session…”. Before you said it being at the end of a training session didn't indicate he could run faster when fresh - at all.
It’s just most of us know you don’t run your fastest sprints in March of your freshman year or April of your sophomore when you aren’t even doing your heaviest speed work.
Cooper ran 22.12 with a cross wind, a slight tailwind but mostly ran into the wind the first 100m.
He split 45.3r running 22.2 / 23.1 in April. Three months before running 1:42.2. The questions most of us ask are: had he run a 400m at USATF instead of an 800m, how fast would he have run.
An 800m runner will have an unlimited number of attempts to prove 800m fitness, but a limited number of attempts to prove off distance fitness.
At the end of the day the exercise is futile because you aren’t able to extrapolate. And I get your point of view. To you, the time is the time, 21.8 with a flying start, a 22.12 two years ago, or a 45.3 in April are what they are. Conditions can be perfect, snow, or a hailstorm - conditions don’t matter to you because your brain is incapable of nuance.