Comeback journey to sub 20 min 5 k at age 66....

older and dumber wrote:

I took about 15 years off racing between age 44 and 59, and have run a few 5k races since. I continued to run during that break, although at much lower volume tan previously. Over a year and a half of race attempts I gradually improved from 20:03 to 19:28, and hope (!) to improve a little more next month on a very flat course at 60 years and 7 months.

The main difference for me (just one data point) between training and racing at 59-60 versus 44 is the difficulty managing reasonable volume and workouts without risking injury. While I used to average about 65 mpw, sometimes getting above 100, i now usually run about 25 and might see 35 occasionally. With a couple of workouts a week, thats about my personal limit.

I’ve kept the workouts very simple, typically rotating between 400s at close to mile pace, 1000s close to 5k pace and longer stuff (maybe 2000s at close to 10k pace or longer strong “tempo”).

I have not personally (yet, anyway) managed to reach equivalent times from my younger racing days; the 19:28 was about 82% age-graded (2015 WMA tables) versus 84-87% across the range from 1500-HM at 42-44. It strikes me that regaining your youth, in age-graded terms, is very difficult, at least for me.

Best of luck in the attempt. I hope it goes better than Henry Rono’s public attempts on here a dozen or so years ago.

older and dumber wrote:

The Magic Coach J.S wrote:

I hope this gave you a more clear view of understanding the concept how I in detail work with as I think the best of Daniels to fit with the best of Gerschler as a part of a very strong method....

ok, thanks for all that. I can see some good sense in what you’ve suggested. I would quibble with a couple of points.

First, I think there are good reasons to vary the type of rest. For 400s at 5k pace, recovering to about 120 bpm would let the athlete eventually get to as many as 20 reps, but the rest intervals would almost certainly slow over time, which isn’t a common approach (but also not necessarily “bad,” per se). Running 10-12 400s at 5k pace with 100 m jog rest becomes something quite different, and I would suggest both approaches are useful. And in other circumstances, faster 490s on full rest (4-6 minutes standing) can be quite useful.

Second, I’m not a fan of “one size fits all” but rather suggest it’s better to tailor to the individual athlete based on their overall training history, their natural tendency for speed (FT) versus endurance (ST), and recent (several months) and very recent (last week) training trajectory.

If folks recall the old but good discussion between Cabral and Hadd about two types of runners, they had opposing views on whether to work on strengths versus weaknesses; my take is that you need to do enough work on weaknesses to support optimal development of strengths. In my case (much more FT) it means a lot of focus on aerobic development to let me safely exploit my natural speed.

Anyway, all that to say I can personally see how what you’ve suggested could fit within otherwise well designed and executed training.

The Magic Coach J.S wrote:

older and dumber wrote:

ok, thanks for all that. I can see some good sense in what you’ve suggested. I would quibble with a couple of points.

First, I think there are good reasons to vary the type of rest. For 400s at 5k pace, recovering to about 120 bpm would let the athlete eventually get to as many as 20 reps, but the rest intervals would almost certainly slow over time, which isn’t a common approach (but also not necessarily “bad,” per se). Running 10-12 400s at 5k pace with 100 m jog rest becomes something quite different, and I would suggest both approaches are useful. And in other circumstances, faster 490s on full rest (4-6 minutes standing) can be quite useful.

Second, I’m not a fan of “one size fits all” but rather suggest it’s better to tailor to the individual athlete based on their overall training history, their natural tendency for speed (FT) versus endurance (ST), and recent (several months) and very recent (last week) training trajectory.

If folks recall the old but good discussion between Cabral and Hadd about two types of runners, they had opposing views on whether to work on strengths versus weaknesses; my take is that you need to do enough work on weaknesses to support optimal development of strengths. In my case (much more FT) it means a lot of focus on aerobic development to let me safely exploit my natural speed.

Anyway, all that to say I can personally see how what you’ve suggested could fit within otherwise well designed and executed training.

Well, what actually happens with the rest when using the " automatic" individual rest back to 120 bpm is that the rest interval gets shorter over time , restinterval speeds up. This is to the coach ( and an experienced runner) a clear sign improvement has taken place and time to speed up the pace of the reps.

When this occurs my own invented the so called " Rubber band principle " will be used in my coaching . I just speed up the reps 1-2 sec and the rest interval will " automatically " go back to a need of about 60-90 sec when running 400s but at a faster speed to the reps.

Hope this made sence and could be understandable? 🧙‍♂️Well, what actually happens with the rest when using the " automatic" individual rest back to 120 bpm is that the rest interval gets shorter over time , restinterval speeds up. This is to the coach ( and an experienced runner) a clear sign improvement has taken place and time to speed up the pace of the reps.

When this occurs my own invented the so called " Rubber band principle " will be used in my coaching . I just speed up the reps 1-2 sec and the rest interval will " automatically " go back to a need of about 60-90 sec when running 400s but at a faster speed to the reps.

Hope this made sence and could be understandable? 🧙‍♂️

The Magic Coach J.S wrote:

older and dumber wrote:

ok, thanks for all that. I can see some good sense in what you’ve suggested. I would quibble with a couple of points.

First, I think there are good reasons to vary the type of rest. For 400s at 5k pace, recovering to about 120 bpm would let the athlete eventually get to as many as 20 reps, but the rest intervals would almost certainly slow over time, which isn’t a common approach (but also not necessarily “bad,” per se). Running 10-12 400s at 5k pace with 100 m jog rest becomes something quite different, and I would suggest both approaches are useful. And in other circumstances, faster 490s on full rest (4-6 minutes standing) can be quite useful.

Second, I’m not a fan of “one size fits all” but rather suggest it’s better to tailor to the individual athlete based on their overall training history, their natural tendency for speed (FT) versus endurance (ST), and recent (several months) and very recent (last week) training trajectory.

If folks recall the old but good discussion between Cabral and Hadd about two types of runners, they had opposing views on whether to work on strengths versus weaknesses; my take is that you need to do enough work on weaknesses to support optimal development of strengths. In my case (much more FT) it means a lot of focus on aerobic development to let me safely exploit my natural speed.

Anyway, all that to say I can personally see how what you’ve suggested could fit within otherwise well designed and executed training.

Well, what actually happens with the rest when using the " automatic" individual rest back to 120 bpm is that the rest interval gets shorter over time , restinterval speeds up. This is to the coach ( and an experienced runner) a clear sign improvement has taken place and time to speed up the pace of the reps.

When this occurs my own invented the so called " Rubber band principle " will be used in my coaching . I just speed up the reps 1-2 sec and the rest interval will " automatically " go back to a need of about 60-90 sec when running 400s but at a faster speed to the reps.

Hope this made sence and could be understandable? 🧙‍♂️Well, what actually happens with the rest when using the " automatic" individual rest back to 120 bpm is that the rest interval gets shorter over time , restinterval speeds up. This is to the coach ( and an experienced runner) a clear sign improvement has taken place and time to speed up the pace of the reps.

When this occurs my own invented the so called " Rubber band principle " will be used in my coaching . I just speed up the reps 1-2 sec and the rest interval will " automatically " go back to a need of about 60-90 sec when running 400s but at a faster speed to the reps.

Hope this made sence and could be understandable? 🧙‍♂️

older and dumber wrote:

I don’t know this JS dude and haven’t followed the threads discussing his coaching - real or alleged - over the years, but I do know he rubs a lot of people the wrong way for his brash claims, unsupported assertions and self-reverence. But I can’t tell, based on my limited exposure to his writing (I’ve frankly avoided those threads), whether he’s more like 430miler or Antonio Cabral, two other self-claimed high level coaches who’ve rubbed people the wrong way on here. I know from personal experience that Cabral is (was? We haven’t heard from him in a long time) the real deal as I met him 20 years ago along with many of his athletes. Is JS a real - and in some ways obnoxious, maybe because of language - accomplished coach, or not, I have no idea but will be happy to see him hit that goal, which is a pretty serious one. And anyway I’m glad for a thread that discusses 5k training for very good mid-60s runners, which I aspire to be one day.

Phoney coaches wrote:

older and dumber wrote:

I don’t know this JS dude and haven’t followed the threads discussing his coaching - real or alleged - over the years, but I do know he rubs a lot of people the wrong way for his brash claims, unsupported assertions and self-reverence. But I can’t tell, based on my limited exposure to his writing (I’ve frankly avoided those threads), whether he’s more like 430miler or Antonio Cabral, two other self-claimed high level coaches who’ve rubbed people the wrong way on here. I know from personal experience that Cabral is (was? We haven’t heard from him in a long time) the real deal as I met him 20 years ago along with many of his athletes. Is JS a real - and in some ways obnoxious, maybe because of language - accomplished coach, or not, I have no idea but will be happy to see him hit that goal, which is a pretty serious one. And anyway I’m glad for a thread that discusses 5k training for very good mid-60s runners, which I aspire to be one day.

OK if you are saying that Cabral is the real deal then tell us all the date and race in which Antonio Cabral ran his self claimed 3'39" 1500m. Cabral claimed that he was a former national record holder over 1500m with this time so you should be able to give us the race or an official record if this really happened (it is not on any Portugese athletics stats page). Also give us an independant source that says that Antonio Cabral coached any Portuguese Olympic athlete. I could list several other lies that Cabral has told the online running community but I have picked the 2 that should be the easiest for you to prove if they were true. My guess is that you do not understand a word of Portuguese and Cabral had you well and truely fooled.

Ghost1 wrote:

Phoney coaches wrote:

OK if you are saying that Cabral is the real deal then tell us all the date and race in which Antonio Cabral ran his self claimed 3'39" 1500m. Cabral claimed that he was a former national record holder over 1500m with this time so you should be able to give us the race or an official record if this really happened (it is not on any Portugese athletics stats page). Also give us an independant source that says that Antonio Cabral coached any Portuguese Olympic athlete. I could list several other lies that Cabral has told the online running community but I have picked the 2 that should be the easiest for you to prove if they were true. My guess is that you do not understand a word of Portuguese and Cabral had you well and truely fooled.

I used to communicate with Antonio Cabral on a regular basis by private message and he has great knowledge of track and field but for the past few years I have not heard anything from him and I fear that he may no longer be with us on this world but I hope I'm wrong.

The Magic Coach J.S wrote:

high school xc coach wrote:

as much as I favor the 400 rep workouts, the reality of my situation doesn't allow for getting it in as much as I'd like. 3 consecutive seasons of too much racing means many weeks without workouts, and the majority with just one workout. Over the summer, I prescribe them at least every other week.

there's also the issue of trying to keep large groups of high school mentally stimulated. for some reason, they seem to loathe the 400s more than any other workout!

Thanks for another good reply🙏🖐

Strange to me they loathe 400s ? As we both know too many high school , college and university coaches make their runners loathe longer maxVO2 workouts? One example came to my mind when I coached a young Kansas kid over the summer months with my the Dancan system and 400m maxVo2 reps. In the first XC 5 k back to school he ran a low 17 min with a former high 18 min pb. He told me his coach gave him and his team mates mile reps and too tough. They just went down in a deep hole.....🧙‍♂️

high school xc coach wrote:

The Magic Coach J.S wrote:

Thanks for another good reply🙏🖐

Strange to me they loathe 400s ? As we both know too many high school , college and university coaches make their runners loathe longer maxVO2 workouts? One example came to my mind when I coached a young Kansas kid over the summer months with my the Dancan system and 400m maxVo2 reps. In the first XC 5 k back to school he ran a low 17 min with a former high 18 min pb. He told me his coach gave him and his team mates mile reps and too tough. They just went down in a deep hole.....🧙‍♂️

It's a workout that feels physically easier, but I think it's a patience thing. start stop. start stop. start stop. pay attention to the watch. wait wait wait. some kids are dedicated to the grind, and don't mind. they're just looking to be coached. but for other kids, getting through practice is just another box they're checking throughout the day. Sometimes even very good kids who are very good runners are like this.

I know there are times when I choose a 3 mile tempo for myself just because it's 20 minutes out the door and back. Or even a 5 mile Tempo that can be just over 30 minutes. I don't have meaningful goals anymore, so being precise or getting ideal training isn't so important.

My typical 16x400 is a mile run to the local track. 16 reps that take roughy 40 minutes between run and recovery. And then another mile back home. So it's an hour vs 30 minutes. And this is a best case scenario because I live an ideal distance from track for an easy "warm up and cool down. "