Lydiard.....emperors clothes?

2-hour would be ideal. 1:30 is acceptable. If you can alternate 1:30~2:00 flat course and 1 hour tough rolling XC course, that would be perfect.

Thank you very much.

Just to explain a bit deeper; Lydiard's runners were doing their long runs over very hilly courses. But innitially it would be beneficial to use a flat course for the long run because you don't introduce added pressure on your legs so you can actually complete the run. But on other day(s), if you can do some undulating XC running, preferably on soft surface like golf course, that would really strengthen your legs as well as stretching them to make them more supple. As we get old, and I know EXACTLY how that goes, we lose flexibility and suppleness. By running up and down the hills, you can develop these qualities naturally--one of the main contributing factors why Jack Foster was such a great master marathon runner.

Hi Nobby

I do exactly as you stated on The long runs. As you know i have been following your suggestions for a few months. I now run 1 of my two weekly long runs over an undulating course and it really has made a difference. I appreciate the documents on Lydiard hill training. Its tough but worth it.

Funny how i thought hill training was run to top, puke, repeat cycle until unconcious.

I think a lot is being made of that comment about wating time. I agree with Nobby.

"Back in the Day" there were quite a number of training groups and everyone supported everyone else when it came to the long runs.

Don't forget young guys and girls like to have agood time on Saturday night. Some people have a rough time getting out of bed to run. All sorts of methods were used to get the athletes out from throwing stones on their roofs to the standard phone call.

I have mentioned on the other thread running on very little sleep and a lot of alcohol. No mercy was given as I was left to suffer. But I still did the run and we moved on from that incident.

I have heard many times from the old timers when some athletes did not make the Sunday run . "If you are not going to bother to turn up to run these then don't bother turning up at all"

Arthur was not the only one saying this stuff.

I keep seeing the 22 mile Waitakere course talked about. Is that course a tough hilly run?

Do you think a key to the success was running the majority of your runs over inclines?

Yes, very hilly--one 3-mile long uphill.

Yes, it is vital. But one of the elements; you need downhill as well as flat.

Eric, Much of New Zealand is Hill country. Wherever we run we get hills.

I live on the side of the Hills that Jack Foster trained around in the 60's/70's/80's and some of the 90's.

I run all my athletes around courses that are bascically hills. So a 45 to 50 minute run can be quite hard work.

Did you read my post about the young Rower. Everytime she ran with us we ran hilly courses.

I did not answer the question Nobby wrote about the fastest time around Waiatarua. Yes ! I too believe it is still Jeff Julian's 1:55. It will never be broken either because the traffic problems that exist on the Roads before you get to West Coast road (The Hill !!!). Never mind the 2 huge Shopping Malls and seven day a week Shopping.

If you had to have a crack at the record now it would have to be about 3:00 am in the morning so you could beat the traffic.

As I have said before, 35 years ago we were heading off on Waiatatarua's at 6:30 to 7:00 am on Sundays because of the traffic problems.

However, there are other courses on the Waitakere rangesn Auckland which are every bit as good if not arguably better.

Opunuku Road and Mountain Road are 'goodies'.

Once again, Waiatarua became famous because it was a run that Arthur could do from his house. I know he did the other courses when he was 'experimenting' with his ideas. He even ran around the whole Waitakere range on occasion.

Let me throw in my two cents worth on this.

I have a tendency to run too fast on just about all my training runs, so recently I tried using a HR monitor to keep myself in check. I really had to pull back on the reins to keep myself in whatever zone I was shooting for. After a few weeks, I started leaving the monitor at home more and more often but could gauge my zone by effort and breathing. When runnig with my wife, I could even tell when she was running too fast. This morning I did a 3/4 effort run, and I knew right off that my heart rate was lower than usual by 10 beats, so I readjusted my zone accordingly and carried on. The results? I feel great and races are showing stady improvement.

If you've got someone to work with face-to-face, of course you want to learn to run by feel from them. Someone like me, however, has never trained under someone with a good grasp of Lydiard's system. The heart rate monitor is an imperfect teacher but better than none.

Here are my zones:

Jogging, 50% to 65% of max heart rate

1/4 effort, 66% to 75% of max heart rate

1/2 effort, 76% to 82%

3/4 effort, 83% to 88% (which lines up very nicely with Tinman's ATR)

and since this is base training, this is as fast as I go for a sustained run.

Nobby & Kim,

Thanks for your responses.

I think I got it now. Today I went for my run and it just clicked. On Weds. I did a 15mile marathon pace run. w/ a 2mi wup & 2mi cdown. Yesterday, I kept it an easy recovery run and did my legs feel tired. I knew I was severly glycogen depleted from the marathon paced run. Today, Kept it the same "effort" as yesterday but pace was a bit managable.

You cannot place a number or pace on a training plan. Because your body is continouly breaking down and changing in adaptations. If I would have made the pace the same on Thurs. as what it was today I would have overdone it and not kept the effort the same.

Another example, that marathon paced run on weds. was close to 6:10 avg. Though a month ago, It was closer to 5:50. I know I did not lose fitness, it was because a month ago the temps were cooler. Close to 60 f, and on Weds. the temp was 80f w/ high humidity. The "effort" was the same but because of the heat, pace wasnt the same.

Do I got it down now?

jsquire

On your 3/4 effort run this morning, was it close to marathon pace?

I too use a heart rate monitor. I've been following the work of Hadd, and I have my marathon pace at about 90% MHR.

You wrote, Tinmans's ATR is 83-88%. What does ATR stand for? aerobic or anaerobic.

Eric, How about trying heading out the door and running one of your routes without watch or HRM. Could be interesting !

It can feel quite 'different' not runing with a watch.

If you want to time the run put the watch somehere handy so that you can start it as you begin to run andstop it as you finish.

rivas wrote:

jsquire

On your 3/4 effort run this morning, was it close to marathon pace?

I too use a heart rate monitor. I've been following the work of Hadd, and I have my marathon pace at about 90% MHR.

You wrote, Tinmans's ATR is 83-88%. What does ATR stand for? aerobic or anaerobic.

It probably would be near marathon pace if I knew how far I went. Give or take a bit it's within range.

Tinman's ATR is an "aerobic threshhold run" (see below) which he thinks is generally a hair slower than marathon pace. Whatever; I'm trying to work the effort angle rather than the pace angle.