David Roche GOES HOME DEVASTATED from Western States

Sounds like you think he’s a bit of a pervert. He is who he is, don’t be like that

Someone being a poophead doesn't make them a sex pest. Don't try to stir up fake drama by lying about him. It only serves to invalidate genuine criticisms.

Would you take SJD over Roche at this point? He was actually a good mountain runner for quite some time, pre-getting crazy and pre-Shoetuber silliness...

trailrunnermag.com

Waiting for Walmsley

Behind the scenes of Jim Walmsley’s record-breaking 2018 Western States 100 victory.

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I think Walmsley actually finished the race in '18 despite the wrong turn, no DNF.

Say what you will about Roche at least his magazine/website really gives a casual runner a good look into ultrarunning.

I get it, Roche triggers a bunch of you. I think it's irrational and says more about all of you than it does about him, but whatever. I accept that he can be cringey, though I don't think it's fake or hiding all kinds of evil reasons.

The part that irritates me is this idea that he's "an influencer," or this was all part of the plan, or that his training is stupid, or that he is a terrible coach, or it's all about Strava kudos. I'll say the below one more time because no one said anything different other than to jump on me for misremembering the specific details of Kilian's and Walmsley's first attempts at WSER.

Roche won a Golden Ticket. Say what you want, but that's a big deal in the sport. He did it at Javelina in a 100 mile race in 100 degree weather, which seemed like it boded well for a hot day at WSER. He beat Magavero, who was fourth yesterday, at Javelina by about 10 minutes. The guy was going to be in the mix (top 10), and has a proven record based on Leadville and Javelina. Farvard and other arguably better runners than Roche DNF'd yesterday, and people who are saying "why didn't he finish" don't know what it's like to blow up in a 100 miler. It's also a pretty strong argument that he's the top ultra, mountain and trail coach in the US in terms of the success of is athletes. He also coaches Jess McClain, who is arguably the top US woman in the marathon now, or at least until Fiona O'Keeffe is back in the event.

Leave all the other BS aside and Roche is a successful runner, podcaster and coach. I get it, it sucks when someone you hate wins. A lot of us felt the same on November 5th. Of course we didn't go around saying that the "election was stolen," and you guys are doing that with Roche. Think about it.

She sounds even more insufferable than him, and that says quite a bit lol. I feel for their child!

Not sure "Successful Podcaster" is the flex.

He won the F'ing race in a CR in '18. Someone above already made the point that he walked it in after getting lost his first year, which was '16.

If everyone DNF'd once they realized they couldn't podium, Western States would be a complete and total sh$tshow.

Complete the race like everyone else, even if you're going to come in 30th.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultramarathon/comments/1lmy7u4/david_roche_dnf_western_states/

solid comment, David overdid it on the taper:

David’s whole approach to this race was based on his belief that he’s not as fit or as talented as the other elite runners, and therefore he needed to employ some combination of experimental training theory and biohacking to level the field. Last year he was all about high carb fueling, but now that more elite runners have adopted a similar approach he felt he needed something new to give him an edge, and went all in on the heat training. I just think he overdid it. He had that crazy video of him doing a 20-mile heat suit run just as one example, even he said he didn’t know if that was crazy or stupid but he was willing to experiment on himself and find out.

I don’t think that one single run was particularly harmful or cost him the race, but it did indicate a level of insecurity in him to feel he needed to push the boundaries that far to have a shot. Most coaches will tell you that when you overdo your training, run a workout too fast or run your easy runs too hard, it’s a sign of insecurity, and that’s what it looked like to me.

Where it really showed up was how he kept up the heat training so much during race week. He talked about wearing a puffy jacket all the time and doing 30 minute hot tub sessions every day up to and including the day before the race. Most heat training protocols recommend tapering the final week so you don’t overstress your body. I just think he overcooked it in that final week, didn’t allow his body an opportunity to recover from the heat, and came to the start line with a body that was already experiencing a degree of physiological stress that manifested itself mid-race.

We’ve all heard of or experienced the story where you begin doubting yourself during the taper and you overtrain when you should be recovering because you’re insecure over your fitness and training, and it feels like that’s what happened here.

I don't understand why such a celebrated coach with, I will freely admit, many clients with an impressive amount of palmarès would then make such a rookie mistake.

Sounds like world class coach behavior. Sign me up.

the first sign was the 20 mile "heat training" run he did in sweats and jacket a week or so prior. the second sign was he was broke the escarpment record split. the first person up that NEVER wins states. the dudes training was overboard. he just wore himself out before the gun.

um he did more than just "over-doing the taper" and heat training too much.

The guy barely ran on any trails around Boulder. He hid on his "calibrated treadmill" most of the time or did some short and fast sessions on the relatively flat roads around his house (by the Boulder Res) at 5:40/mile pace and called it his "Zone 2."

Then he went on and on about his track speed fitness and how he needed that "sub 4 mile kind of shape" to compete...so he did a few 400m rep workouts in like 65sec.

Probably the most specific thing he ever did for the WS100 prep was some faster downhills on Gold Hill as a long run. Although he ran up Sunshine Canyon and down Four Mile so he could get a relatively soft and not hotly contested Strava "FKT".

The dude simply did not train correctly at all for Western. Most of us could see this months ago.

That's fine and all (people make mistakes, even coaches). But the boasting and self promotion and narcissistic behavior is why Roche is disliked so much. At least by people with half a brain that aren't dumb enough to follow his "Swap cult" and post emojis of green dinosaurs and like his "amazeballz" "awesome sauce" comments....

Roche rubs a lot of us the wrong way for a few reasons:

- He loves talking about science, but his own training pushes the bounds of sanity. Ankle weights to warm up? Running in women's super shoes? Excessive use of heat training? Keeling over after every workout? WTF.

- He talks a lot about inclusion, but if you mention voting for someone that he doesn't like, he'll cuss you out on Strava

- He makes outrageous statements like, "The fastest miler will win States" or "I'm in sub-four minute mile shape"

- He tries to be self-deprecating but in the next sentence he'll talk about running 14:15 at WS. If he wants to be in the limelight, he needs to be honest about what his goals are and what he is capable of. As the course record holder at Leadville, he had a good shot at being top five at WS. Instead he would essentially say "I'm a super underdog, everyone else is better than me, but I think I can run 14:15." Which one is it? Just own your fitness and potential for the race.

- Positivity is great, but be real dude. In the trail space, someone like DBo is positive and energetic, but he's not obnoxious. Learn from him. Stop saying "Love you guys." Learn to listen and stop vying for attention.

- Even though he was totally done at Foresthill, he waited until a quarter mile after Foresthill to drop out. That allowed him to get attention stumbling down Main Street and then more attention walking back up Main Street.

Then how do you explain his runs at Leadville (tons of vert) and Javelina? You guys keep banging on about his supposedly stupid training but never square it with his accomplishments. "Hid" on his treadmill is a stupid, cheap shot. If there's one thing he didn't do, it's hide.

Anyone saying that he overcooked it, that could be right. It also could be right that it was a sign of insecurity. He is open about saying he isn't as gifted as the top guys so he was going to try to figure out other ways of getting an edge.

Does that make him a bad coach? Definitely not. He said a bunch of times that he is experimenting and he wouldn't tell his athletes to do some of the stuff that he is doing. The 20 mile heat suit is the best example. Kilian did a cr-p ton of heat training too. I remember from Strava that at least one day Kilian did almost 3 hours of heat in two sessions. I also know he did a bunch of 1:30-1:45 (2 hours?) sessions. None of this was the 50 minute protocol from the studies and I think it's cool that elite guys are experimenting with more. A combo of stuff may have overcooked Roche, or maybe he just had a sh-t day. Like I said, he wasn't exactly the only pro who had a terrible day yesterday.

Ankle weights are another example of stuff he likes but doesn't tell others to do. Nose strips are another one. Whatever.

Having talented runners sign up for your coaching and then having said talented runners do well in a race does not necessarily mean that anything about your coaching got those runners to that position.

THIS. Exactly this. He could have sat down in Forest Hill, he could have had a whole 2h nap and still finished..if he wanted to.. if his ego allowed him to finish outside podium or even Top 10. But that's not him. He's an all or nothing guy. He doesn't gut it out when he has a tough day, when he makes mistakes that cost him time. "Ohhh I feel dizzy".. you think someone being out in 100 degree heat for 30h never feels dizzy? You think those finishing dead last feel great all day??? He chose a suicide pace and running with the lead over running his own race...soo..basically what everyone said would happen. Fwiw I think he could have finished Top10 if he'd paced the first 50 miles *very* differently.