The official bothers me more than the trans athlete. Imagine bullying teen girls.
I really wish the teen girls had refused to leave. He would have either had to let them stay or forcibly remove them. Removing them would have further highlighted their bravery and what a d!ck he was. In any case, those two girls should be proud of taking a stand against this nonsense.
The official bothers me more than the trans athlete. Imagine bullying teen girls.
I really wish the teen girls had refused to leave. He would have either had to let them stay or forcibly remove them. Removing them would have further highlighted their bravery and what a d!ck he was. In any case, those two girls should be proud of taking a stand against this nonsense.
The rules are a huge part of the problem. In Oregon, you just have to “sincerely” identify as transgender.
OSAA accepts the athlete’s word for it.
Literally the only feasible and verifiable system for mass-participation children's sports.
Or please, tell us your better idea.
I was at a track meet this weekend with well over 1000 girls competing, mostly aged 12-17. Should every one of them need to submit a doctor's note?
And what information should that doctor's note have, pray tell? A genital exam? Because that wouldn't rule out Semenya? Chromosomal testing? To run middle school track?
As a parent and a doctor, I respectfully encourage you to think a bit harder of the implications of what you are proposing. (Which are MUCH more onerous than the minimal impacts of a trans kid being in a few girl's races.)
A chromosome test is not intrusive and requires only a cheek swab.
A birth certificate would also suffice, except insane states like WA now allow you to retroactively edit your birth sex (not your "gender," your sex assigned at birth).
I had a daughter who always finished top 6. She won a couple races in the steeplechase (in high school).
I would have been upset if a biological boy beat her.
What happens in Oregon sets the tone for the rest of the country.
That said, how many cases are there?
You would have been upset. How would she have felt?
No skin in this game as a pretty impartial poster, but I have consistently found a big difference between how adults feel about it and the actual kids themselves.
In the case of a biological boy who grew his hair and put on nail polish to be a girl?
She would have been upset. And if she wasn't, I would have accepted her decision and respected her for it.
The thing with track is that no one is getting hit (and hurt) and you don't have softball pitcher simply overpowering girls.
The high school issue IS NOT people going through the medical transition.
For people who are tolerant of males in women's sporting events, I have two questions.
Do you want to abolish gendered sports in general, or do you support gender-divided sports?
Are there bounds to your tolerance? How many males in a womens sporting event would you be comfortable with? For example if half of a girls volleyball team were males, would that bother you at all? Would you even think it was important? How about all of them?
I'm trying to get my head around the way y'all see this.
I'd say, it is a red signal if trans women get overrepresented in women's sports.
It is hard to define what overrepresentation is because we don't know how many people are "trans women" in any age group.
However, let's assume the number of trans women is 0.5% of cis women. There are about 200,000 women competing in NCAA sports. 0.5% of that is 1000. That sounds like a lot, but that's spread among all sports in all three divisions. There are about 6,000 D1 volleyball players. So that would be 30 players across 300+ teams. We could also have a rule that any team cannot have more than one trans player.
You can do the same thing with high school, except one player per team limit might be hard to enforce because students usually attend their local school and do not transfer. In that case, you could have one player on the court limit instead of one player on the team.
Also, I would ask supporters of the trans athlete movement to do a thought experiment in reverse... Imagine if the two original sports divisions from 100 years ago were boys and trans-girls. If that is how it had always been, would you support a "new category" for biological females? Would feminists have a good point if they asked for biological females to have their own division?
So when would cis women need a new category?
1. The best trans woman is always better than the best cis woman, and cis women cannot win anything at the top.
2. Cis women can win some titles and medals. But they are still underrepresented at the top. Trans women win disproportionate number of titles and medals.
3. Cis women win most of the titles and medals. But trans women win some. Anytime a trans woman wins anything, it's a loss for cis women.
4. Trans women don't win anything important. But they still finish ahead of some cis women. Anytime a trans women finishes ahead of a cis woman, it's a loss for cis women.
5. Trans women finish DFL every single time. But cis women still do not want to compete with them because they don't consider trans women as their peers.
In cases of #1 and #2, cis women definitely need a separate category. #5 is simply transphobic. I'd say #4 is also unreasonable, although the argument itself is not transphobic. The current situation is #3.
But with sex (which is not the same as gender), it is much easier to list the biological markers of normal of hormone levels, the secondary sexual traits like hip and shoulder ratios, and so on. That is why the divisions are based on sex, not gender. And sex is testable with a cheek swab (in all but the most confusing DSD cases).
Hormonal levels and secondary sexual traits are two differences that matter in athletic performance. Swab test identifies karyotype, which is another sexual marker. Gonads and genitalia are two other sexual markers that do not directly influence the athletic performance.
Most people on this board are obsessed with the latter three (karyotype, gonads and genitalia), while ignoring the first two. (hormonal level and secondary traits.) So if we have a person who was born with Y chromosome, testes and a penis, but has the hormonal level and secondary sexual traits of a woman, which division does this person belong to?
Does it make any difference whether it is a result of DSD or a result of Gender Affirming Hormone Therapy?
Also, I would ask supporters of the trans athlete movement to do a thought experiment in reverse... Imagine if the two original sports divisions from 100 years ago were boys and trans-girls. If that is how it had always been, would you support a "new category" for biological females? Would feminists have a good point if they asked for biological females to have their own division?
So when would cis women need a new category?
1. The best trans woman is always better than the best cis woman, and cis women cannot win anything at the top.
2. Cis women can win some titles and medals. But they are still underrepresented at the top. Trans women win disproportionate number of titles and medals.
3. Cis women win most of the titles and medals. But trans women win some. Anytime a trans woman wins anything, it's a loss for cis women.
4. Trans women don't win anything important. But they still finish ahead of some cis women. Anytime a trans women finishes ahead of a cis woman, it's a loss for cis women.
5. Trans women finish DFL every single time. But cis women still do not want to compete with them because they don't consider trans women as their peers.
In cases of #1 and #2, cis women definitely need a separate category. #5 is simply transphobic. I'd say #4 is also unreasonable, although the argument itself is not transphobic. The current situation is #3.
What a load of pilpul crap.
Men don’t belong in womens sportkng events. Period.
The mentally ill people who call themselves trans need psychological help. The mentally ill people who support them because they want chaos and disorder, because they hate normalcy, and most of all, because they hate and are jealous of real women, should be locked up.
Then what do you say to high school kids who are getting hormone therapy?
If they're tested regularly and actually show that they're slowing down maybe it's ok.
But, honestly I don't have an answer.
I would not be mad if they just banned them.
I said on another thread- I think people doing this should just take themselves out of sports.
You would not be mad because you have not relation to them.
But your daughter would be mad if her best friend was banned from the team. She may quit, or refuse to play, in protest.
A trans girl can stay away from sports. It is an elitist activity reserved for the privileged majority anyway. But if she enters a vocal contest as an alto, she will still be accused of having unfair advantage because of her lung capacity.
Or in more real terms, because this is actually happening, if a road race offered prize money for the non-binary division and after a few years only non-binary biological males had ever won the money, could the non-binary females rightly demand equal prize money?
Cal Calamia is actually beating most of the nonbinary males. But nonbinary men in most cases are simply men who identify as nonbinary. They have done nothing on their body to make them slower.
So if you have natal males with suppressed testosterone and natal female with enhances testosterone, which one would have the advantage? I don't know. We will find that out if trans women and trans men compete in the same category.
Very few, if anyone, in this thread is saying that it's perfectly fine and acceptable for an otherwise healthy and normal boy to put on a dress one day and dominate everyone. I'm certainly not. (I do think you are absolutely and massively overcounting how often it is that simple, but that's besides the point.) What many of us ARE saying though is that for all of your anger and self-righteousness, not only are you not proposing a remotely workable solution, you're also doing so from a place of rank ignorance.
Exactly.
In this thread they are literally proposing mandatory cheek swabs for every middle school girl in America to play sports or use a restroom, to confirm XX purity rather than going on the gender as declared by the child and their parent (which has worked well for decades).
Also, I would ask supporters of the trans athlete movement to do a thought experiment in reverse... Imagine if the two original sports divisions from 100 years ago were boys and trans-girls. If that is how it had always been, would you support a "new category" for biological females? Would feminists have a good point if they asked for biological females to have their own division?
But with sex (which is not the same as gender), it is much easier to list the biological markers of normal of hormone levels, the secondary sexual traits like hip and shoulder ratios, and so on. That is why the divisions are based on sex, not gender. And sex is testable with a cheek swab (in all but the most confusing DSD cases).
Sorry, but in many cases kids' sports divisions are based on gender, not sex.
Because allowing kids to play sports within their gender identify a greater societal good than mandatory chromosomal testing and genital exams to create a "pure" XX sex division.
This is really only controversial in the US. You don't hear this whining to nearly the same extent in Canada, Europe, Australia, or New Zealand. Backwards.
The official that wouldn't let the two girls be in the podium picture with their backs turned is a disgrace. People like him are part of the problem. Shame on him.
When the world looks back on this footage, this official will be like Tom Miller shoving away dinosaur Jock Semple, when Semple tried to take Katherine Switzer our of the Boston Marathon.
That is already how he looks to the non-transphobe world, the majority of every civilized country.
Without some form of testing or medical records proof, what stops a coach from filling his girls XC varsity team with a few 17-19 minute JV boys who claim to identify as girls? Seems like an automatic state title pathway.
Sorry, we are talking about the real world, not your made-up storyland.
No civilized country has rules against trans girls in school sports. Everywhere else just goes by the declaration of the child/parent.
And nothing like your little fear fantasy story is happening in Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand or any other country that just lets kids run per their own gender. (Rather than the government dictating their division to them.)
The mentally ill people who call themselves trans need psychological help. The mentally ill people who support them because they want chaos and disorder, because they hate normalcy, and most of all, because they hate and are jealous of real women, should be locked up.
Truly unhinged comments. ⬆
Nice representative of the dinosaurs on this "side."
If one of those girls was my daughter, she would be in the picture. I would be down on the track making sure it happened.
Several officials would ask you to leave and if you wanted to get physical about it, which you seem to be implying, you could be charged with assault.
I would bet money that there is a strong correlation between transphobia and being an embarrassment of a parent who attacks school officials at children's events.
