059rjdhud8 wrote:
Gender is a social construct. It has no basis in biology.
Bullsh*t
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I’m going to start by saying that I highly emphasize with this woman. There is no place for male to female transgender athletes in women’s sports. Personally I can’t be moved from this position, I do not care what hormone therapy they take, or what changes are made.
However, I do believe that people have the right to be transgender. Frankly I think freedom of choice is the hallmark of being an American. This obviously comes in-hand with being responsible for the consequences of one’s actions.
The problem I currently have is that this transgender discussion is getting far too much attention in the grand scheme of things. Personally I have been alive for 30 some-odd years. I have met 3 transgender people. I think they are such a minority that it is not worth all this hot air. It should be very simple. No male to female transgender athletes in women’s sports. They can compete in the male division or an intersex division. That’s it, end of discussion. We have significantly bigger problems in our lives, and frankly I think this is a distraction so we don’t look at the real things that are going on.
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it is so kind of you to recognize us as (barely) human. how do I express my gratitude? I hope somebody is as considerate to you some day.
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Athletes that FULLY transition should be more than welcome in any sport by all.
(and that's what the rules were until 2016)
In 100+ years of running history there has never ever, been an elite or even semi-elite athlete that was fully transitioned.
It's not physically possible.
Athletes with less than FOUR years of transition are non-binary and not fully transitioned
NCAA should never, ever have allowed anyone with less than four years of transition to complete.
Every single performance that someone has a problem with on letsrun or elsewhere is because an athlete the was not fully transitioned was allowed to compete in a category that was not appropriate for them at the time.
Any example you want to argue, were they transitioned for less than four years?
Well there is your answer. They were non-binary and had no place in the womens race.
Now all that said, there were only ten athletes in the entire NCAA across a HALF MILLION athletes than were transgender
Think about that ratio vs the endless coverage here, so many headlines and threads for TEN non-elite athletes.
(and since when does letsrun give a damn about DII? not any other time than this kind of bullying)
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Qeee wrote:
Blowing Rock Master wrote:
Repeating a lie over and over again doesn't make it true.
And the bigot here is you. You obviously don't like women.
Is there a reason that you are thinking about trans people all the time?
Qeeef, I'm trying to help you return to living in the real world instead of the pretend world. Obviously, this is a lost cause.
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Anti bigot wrote:
Blowing Rock Master wrote:
Repeating a lie over and over again doesn't make it true.
And the bigot here is you. You obviously don't like women.
Not sure where that claim came from lol, this is fun
Only someone who doesn't like women would try to force female athletes to compete against male athletes pretending to be female. Duh.
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Qeee wrote:
RunRagged wrote:
Whoah, there buddy. I've been busy with other things. No need to get your knickers in a knot.
You're grossly misrepresenting my position. I don't believe that "trans people" should "stay out of sports." Nor have I ever said anything to that effect.
My position is that malepeople should stay out of female sports. That's all male people, not just male people who say they have a a trans, non-binary or other special gender identity.
I have no problem with female people who say they have a trans, non-binary, genderqueer or some other new flavor of gender identity different to their sex competing in girls' and women's sports so long as they are not taking, and have not taken, exogenous testosterone or other PEDs.
A couple of years ago, in fact, I put in a good word and pulled some strings at my college alma mater to help a female HS athlete from my local area with a trans non-binary gender identity get admitted. She never took any testosterone or other PEDs, so there was never any issue about her competing in girls' and women's sports.
As for your other question - How do you feel about the trans people in general? - I can't generalize. People with trans gender identities come in a wide variety, just like members of every other minority group does.
That said, I don't believe any human can change sex, so to me everyone who has adopted a trans gender identity is still the sex they've always been since before they were born. That doesn't mean I think they should have to conform to or be confined to the gendered stereotypes and narrow sex roles and expectations traditionally associated with ther sex. On the contrary, I'm a big fan of children, teens and adults alike having freedom to buck the stereotypes. I'm pretty "nonconforming" myself.
Although in most of life, a person's sex doesn't matter much, there are some situations where I think that sex does matter, and matters a lot - such as health care, medical research, birth registry records, public health data, sports classification, registration for the US Selective Service, guaging life expectancy for retirement planning, TSA patdowns, body searches by police and security staff and access to sex-segregated facilties like communal restrooms, locker rooms, changing rooms, shelters, barracks, group homes, prisons, halfway houses, domestic violence refuges, rape crisis centers. In situations where sex does matter, I think the actual sex of a person with a trans, nobinary or other other novel gender identity usually counts more than their currently-claimed gender identity.
So your position is that “male people should stay out female sports.”
So you are implicitly telling us 2 things:
1) You are not against female people participating in female sports.
2) you are not against female people participating in male sports.
In fact, I did not say anything implicitly or explictly telling you or anyone else that I'm either for or against female people participating in male sports like you allege. I didn't mention or allude to the issue of females participating in male sports at all.
But since you're trying to make it appear as though I have indeed expressed a view about females in male sports on this thread, let me be clear: I am not willing to make sweeping statements about females participating in boys' and men's sports either way.
My view on whether allowing females to participate on teams and in leagues and athletics events established as "male sports" would be fair, reaonable, practical, in the best interests of all the athletes who'd be involved - and physically safe for the females who want to participate - would inevitably vary depending on which particular sport and the specific context we're talking about.
Non-contact sports like track & field, swimming, tennis and touch football are obviously very different to contact sports where play can get quite rough like American tackle football, ice hockey, rugby, and combat sports like martial arts and boxing.
I'd also have to take into account the context - such as whether we're talking about MS and HS interscholastic sports in publicly-funded education systems; intramural school sports; casual community sports; highly competitive intercollegiate sports like those governed b the NCAA; elite and pro sports at the level of the Premier League in football (soccer), the ICC, FIFA, NFL, NHL, NBA, World Aquatics, etc.
Before coming to a final conclusion about any given situation where a female athlete wants to partcipate in male sports, I'd want to find out what the boys and men who'd be affected honestly feel and think. As a sibling, former schoolmate, friend and mother of males who derived a lot of benefit from playing boys' and men's sports exclusively with and against members of their own sex, I'd never want to see male athletes put in situations where they might feel they have to hold back from giving their all and doing their best when competing in "male sports" for fear of causing physical injury or bruising the self-esteem of a female athlete who's been allowed to join in. But in any event, I don't think anyone of my sex should have the final say about male sports.
All that said, I'm a big proponent of mixed-sex or "co-ed" sports. Most everyone I know who has done single-sex sports has also participates in mixed-sex sports - and we've all gotten a lot out of both.
This post was edited 10 minutes after it was posted.83 -
Was the trans woman vaccinated
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Blowing Rock Master wrote:
059rjdhud8 wrote:
They are not men pretending to be girls. They are women mis assigned male at birth.
The division between males and females in sports isn't based on gender. It's based on sex.
This is simply a false statement as per WA’s eligibility documents that explicitly define “transgender female” athletes and allow athletes to pick their category based on either one of gender or sex.
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the funny thing about the GOP is their 20 different culture war issues never cohere. i say that because svard is swedish. aren't you the folks who when you put on your immigration complainer hats whine that we have too many foreigners winning NCAA?
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svard is being a greedy, vengeful turd. she got her 400H d2 championship in 2023. she doesn't need to make her legacy pouting about lost milk or being a bigot. she doesn't need to steal someone else's. it's a bad look.
and to be clear, she took 3rd in 2022 just the same. what's her excuse that year?
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If then wrote:
“As for your second point, it is true that not being able to understand what is going inside trans people's brains does not make it "true." But it does not make it "false" either. We simply don't know whether it is true or false. And when we don't know something, I think we should fault on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt to people who are most directly affected. In this case, that's trans people.
I wrote "most directly affected" because other people are also affected. The issue regarding sports is the most obvious case, but there are other situations.”
I disagree. This still assumes that “trans people” are a legitimate reality, whose reality is publicly accessible to all. But we haven’t established that. What we’ve established is that we don’t know, based on the claims of psychological self-experience/professes intuition, THAT there are in fact any trans people. How can we “give the benefit of the doubt” to a class of people who we don’t know actually exist, unless of course we decide to favor one explanation (the interior psychological one) over the exterior bodily one?
Well said. Not sure it answers or settles issues but it certainly stimulates thought on some deeper matters about feelings and the sort of ambivalence--confusion--that hangs like a fog over this stuff. I am prompted by your individual/class question! So much we dont know, especially about the identity/social status question, especially when there is pressure from a large group to attach morality/legality to a psychological-social youngish phenomenon! Just the start.
This post was edited 7 minutes after it was posted.12 -
RunRagged wrote:
In fact, I did not say anything implicitly or explictly telling you or anyone else that I'm either for or against female people participating in male sports like you allege. I didn't mention or allude to the issue of females participating in male sports at all.
But since you're trying to make it appear as though I have indeed expressed a view about females in male sports on this thread, let me be clear: I am not willing to make sweeping statements about females participating in boys' and men's sports either way.
My view on whether allowing females to participate on teams and in leagues and athletics events established as "male sports" would be fair, reaonable, practical, in the best interests of all the athletes who'd be involved - and physically safe for the females who want to participate - would inevitably vary depending on which particular sport and the specific context we're talking about.
Non-contact sports like track & field, swimming, tennis and touch football are obviously very different to contact sports where play can get quite rough like American tackle football, ice hockey, rugby, and combat sports like martial arts and boxing.
I'd also have to take into account the context - such as whether we're talking about MS and HS interscholastic sports in publicly-funded education systems; intramural school sports; casual community sports; highly competitive intercollegiate sports like those governed b the NCAA; elite and pro sports at the level of the Premier League in football (soccer), the ICC, FIFA, NFL, NHL, NBA, World Aquatics, etc.
Before coming to a final conclusion about any given situation where a female athlete wants to partcipate in male sports, I'd want to find out what the boys and men who'd be affected honestly feel and think. As a sibling, former schoolmate, friend and mother of males who derived a lot of benefit from playing boys' and men's sports exclusively with and against members of their own sex, I'd never want to see male athletes put in situations where they might feel they have to hold back from giving their all and doing their best when competing in "male sports" for fear of causing physical injury or bruising the self-esteem of a female athlete who's been allowed to join in. But in any event, I don't think anyone of my sex should have the final say about male sports.
All that said, I'm a big proponent of mixed-sex or "co-ed" sports. Most everyone I know who has done single-sex sports has also participates in mixed-sex sports - and we've all gotten a lot out of both.
I knew someone who was on our school's practice / scrimmage team for the women's basketball team (good power 5). What I heard is they had a physical advantage but a 'technique' disadvantage - give them a wide open 3 and it's a toss-up whether they make it or not, while give the women the same shot and they'll make it most of the time. Of course - didn't have stars like CC or Juju Watkins who'd embarass them - but I think it was a physical advantage but a technique disadvantage. Definitely helped the women's team to practice against them.
As to holding back - I think they played at 99% effort most times. They didn't poster dunk as that won't be happening or make certain plays (blocks) only men could reasonably make, but they played hard. But on an open fast break they probably would dunk instead of doing a layup.
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Elzio Dennick wrote:
So you are all for men pretending to be a girl, you really don't see that as being weird?
So when these guys go out to a bar with a band, they wait for a guy to ask them to dance, well?
So being a girl they will dig guys, right?
For the record, the vast majority of men and teenage boys who adopt an opposite-sex gender identity - aka "transwomen" and "transgirls" - are sexually attracted to females. Most of them are bog-standard heterosexual blokes like Rachel (Richard) Levine and Caitlyn (Bruce) Jenner, though some are bisexuals.
Yes, plenty of so-called "transwomen" like CeCe Telfer are homosexual males who are solely interested in other men sexually. But especially today, homosexual males make up only a small minority of the total population of so-called "transwomen."
However, after heterosexual males "transition," many develop "pseudobisexuality" and some develop genuine sexual attractions towards other males and form romantic pair-bonds with them.
Interestingly, some males who are sexually attracted to females who adopt a trans gender identity end up hooking up and pairing off with other males who've adopted a trans gender identity too. This is known as going "T4T."
The main driver prompting men and boys who are sexually attracted to the opposite sex to adopt a trans gender identity is autogynephilia, aka AGP for short, a male paraphilia whereby boys and men are sexually aroused by the thought or image of themselves as female.
In an episode of the HBO Max series "White Lotus" that first aired the other day, a middle-aged American male character living as an ex-pat in Thailand played by Sam Rockwell told another American man, played by Walton Goggins, about the kinds of thinking and behaviors he'd engaged in because of his own autogynephilia without ever saying the word autogynephila or the acronym AGP. The description Rockwell gives is brilliantly written, Rockwell's delivery is spot-on, and Goggin's facial expressions as he listens are priceless.
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.83 -
Veee Eyee Teee wrote:
svard is being a greedy, vengeful turd. she got her 400H d2 championship in 2023. she doesn't need to make her legacy pouting about lost milk or being a bigot. she doesn't need to steal someone else's. it's a bad look.
and to be clear, she took 3rd in 2022 just the same. what's her excuse that year?
She's capitalizing on a loose connection to a current controversy to virtue signal and gain some cheap sm points.
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I don't understand the whole "trans women are women" ideology. I'm all for eliminating systemic barriers to happiness and achievement. By this I mean that education and employment opportunities should be equally accessible to people of any gender, race, orientation, identity, or creed. I don't care about any of it. But to claim that because we should treat everyone equitably we must treat them equally is insanity. Trans women are fundamentally not women. I'm all for trans women competing in sports and not having to compete against cis men or even trans men on hormones. Just have a trans or intersex division and let everybody compete on an even field. Alternatively have no divisions. Men, women, trans, and cis all compete in one pool of contestants. Either these physiologic differences are meaningful or they are not. Claiming trans women are women with respect to sports is claiming that the differences are meaningful (in that they should not have to compete against men) but also not meaningful (in that they should be allowed to compete against cis women). That is nonsensical.
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RunRagged wrote:
Qeee wrote:
So your position is that “male people should stay out female sports.”
So you are implicitly telling us 2 things:
1) You are not against female people participating in female sports.
2) you are not against female people participating in male sports.
In fact, I did not say anything implicitly or explictly telling you or anyone else that I'm either for or against female people participating in male sports like you allege. I didn't mention or allude to the issue of females participating in male sports at all.
But since you're trying to make it appear as though I have indeed expressed a view about females in male sports on this thread, let me be clear: I am not willing to make sweeping statements about females participating in boys' and men's sports either way.
My view on whether allowing females to participate on teams and in leagues and athletics events established as "male sports" would be fair, reaonable, practical, in the best interests of all the athletes who'd be involved - and physically safe for the females who want to participate - would inevitably vary depending on which particular sport and the specific context we're talking about.
Non-contact sports like track & field, swimming, tennis and touch football are obviously very different to contact sports where play can get quite rough like American tackle football, ice hockey, rugby, and combat sports like martial arts and boxing.
I'd also have to take into account the context - such as whether we're talking about MS and HS interscholastic sports in publicly-funded education systems; intramural school sports; casual community sports; highly competitive intercollegiate sports like those governed b the NCAA; elite and pro sports at the level of the Premier League in football (soccer), the ICC, FIFA, NFL, NHL, NBA, World Aquatics, etc.
Before coming to a final conclusion about any given situation where a female athlete wants to partcipate in male sports, I'd want to find out what the boys and men who'd be affected honestly feel and think. As a sibling, former schoolmate, friend and mother of males who derived a lot of benefit from playing boys' and men's sports exclusively with and against members of their own sex, I'd never want to see male athletes put in situations where they might feel they have to hold back from giving their all and doing their best when competing in "male sports" for fear of causing physical injury or bruising the self-esteem of a female athlete who's been allowed to join in. But in any event, I don't think anyone of my sex should have the final say about male sports.
All that said, I'm a big proponent of mixed-sex or "co-ed" sports. Most everyone I know who has done single-sex sports has also participates in mixed-sex sports - and we've all gotten a lot out of both.
Runragged: hope I got the right source here, but Your comments about "mixed sex" sports are refreshing to see here in this contentious scene! It is not much addressed here In my view. Your words and analysis resonate with some question and I guess sympathies Ive maundered. We tend to overlook the idea of sport and competitin as cooperative, healthy activity that promotes health and soclial equity--not to mention fun and social interaction between and among the sexes, all of them. But your commentary says it better! Thanks!
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Veee Eyee Teee wrote:
svard is being a greedy, vengeful turd. she got her 400H d2 championship in 2023. she doesn't need to make her legacy pouting about lost milk or being a bigot. she doesn't need to steal someone else's. it's a bad look.
and to be clear, she took 3rd in 2022 just the same. what's her excuse that year?
You know what else many people think is "a bad look" and a sure sign of "being a bigot" and a "turd"? Blokes who take to social media to make blatantly misogynistic posts expressing their utter disdain for female athletes who've lost titles and trophies to male athletes who've competed in women's sports like you've done here by calling Minna Svärd "a greedy, vengeful" piece of excrement, portraying her as a sore loser and bad sport pursing her lips petutantly over spilt milk, and accusing her of "being a bigot" to boot.
It's not even noon on the East Coast of the USA, and already you've managed to fulfill LRC's mandatory daily minimum of misogyny all by your lonesome - and in a single short post, too!
Well done, mate. Well done.
This post was edited 9 minutes after it was posted.52 -
RunRagged wrote:
Qeee wrote:
So your position is that “male people should stay out female sports.”
So you are implicitly telling us 2 things:
1) You are not against female people participating in female sports.
2) you are not against female people participating in male sports.
In fact, I did not say anything implicitly or explictly telling you or anyone else that I'm either for or against female people participating in male sports like you allege. I didn't mention or allude to the issue of females participating in male sports at all.
But since you're trying to make it appear as though I have indeed expressed a view about females in male sports on this thread, let me be clear: I am not willing to make sweeping statements about females participating in boys' and men's sports either way.
My view on whether allowing females to participate on teams and in leagues and athletics events established as "male sports" would be fair, reaonable, practical, in the best interests of all the athletes who'd be involved - and physically safe for the females who want to participate - would inevitably vary depending on which particular sport and the specific context we're talking about.
Non-contact sports like track & field, swimming, tennis and touch football are obviously very different to contact sports where play can get quite rough like American tackle football, ice hockey, rugby, and combat sports like martial arts and boxing.
I'd also have to take into account the context - such as whether we're talking about MS and HS interscholastic sports in publicly-funded education systems; intramural school sports; casual community sports; highly competitive intercollegiate sports like those governed b the NCAA; elite and pro sports at the level of the Premier League in football (soccer), the ICC, FIFA, NFL, NHL, NBA, World Aquatics, etc.
Before coming to a final conclusion about any given situation where a female athlete wants to partcipate in male sports, I'd want to find out what the boys and men who'd be affected honestly feel and think. As a sibling, former schoolmate, friend and mother of males who derived a lot of benefit from playing boys' and men's sports exclusively with and against members of their own sex, I'd never want to see male athletes put in situations where they might feel they have to hold back from giving their all and doing their best when competing in "male sports" for fear of causing physical injury or bruising the self-esteem of a female athlete who's been allowed to join in. But in any event, I don't think anyone of my sex should have the final say about male sports.
All that said, I'm a big proponent of mixed-sex or "co-ed" sports. Most everyone I know who has done single-sex sports has also participates in mixed-sex sports - and we've all gotten a lot out of both.
You are a raging hypocrite and extremely sexist. You pick and choose to fit your agenda. You are not fooling me. You think women can do no wrong, and that they need to be protected, unless it goes against their agenda. You will always play the victim, and quit acting like you’re afraid of a man’s genitalia.
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prickle wrote:
Blowing Rock Master wrote:
The division between males and females in sports isn't based on gender. It's based on sex.
This is simply a false statement as per WA’s eligibility documents that explicitly define “transgender female” athletes and allow athletes to pick their category based on either one of gender or sex.
Seb Coe has explicitly stated that the division is based on whether or not you have a Y chromosome. That's a sex-based division.
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