Except that they won't because this whole thread, as well as the multitude of similar ones that turn up here, are just people venting. Foreign athletes in the NCAA aren't going anywhere. And yes, I think that's a good thing. The history of US college track would be a lot poorer without Henry Rono, Sydney Maree, Nick Rose, Neil Cusack, Ron Delany, and many others. But I don't care if others disagree. I just wish the people complaining would come up with some other argument than the bit about taxpayer money going to scholarships to foreign athletes.
Well the final decision will not be up to you, me, or anyone else on this thread, but the majority of voters in our states, most of whom are not familiar with the history of collegiate track and field. Much more radical bills than this have passed state legislatures, so I would not be so quick to rule it out as impossible.
I do believe that to them, my arguments of keeping our tax money here and sending our own children to college with it will be convincing. Invoking obscure running history from the 20th century to advocate for the opposite, as interesting as it might be to you and I, will prove less convincing I feel.
I know this is pointless but once more into the breach. Voters in any state cannot do anything about how their state university's athletic department spends money they have raised themselves. It can't be done. You won't believe that so why don't we revive this thread in five years, unless it keeps going on that long, and see what's happened.
In golf - Jon Rahm (Spain) went to Arizona st. - has won the masters and U.S. Open. Adam Scott (Australia) UNLV - Masters winner. Matthew Fitzpatrick (England) Northwestern University - U.S. Open winner
There are many others. But don't you want to see the best compete right here? So many great Jamaican sprinters who went to American universities. I think we should celebrate it, not ban it.
Well the final decision will not be up to you, me, or anyone else on this thread, but the majority of voters in our states, most of whom are not familiar with the history of collegiate track and field. Much more radical bills than this have passed state legislatures, so I would not be so quick to rule it out as impossible.
I do believe that to them, my arguments of keeping our tax money here and sending our own children to college with it will be convincing. Invoking obscure running history from the 20th century to advocate for the opposite, as interesting as it might be to you and I, will prove less convincing I feel.
I know this is pointless but once more into the breach. Voters in any state cannot do anything about how their state university's athletic department spends money they have raised themselves. It can't be done. You won't believe that so why don't we revive this thread in five years, unless it keeps going on that long, and see what's happened.
What are you talking about. They pass a bill that Universities that give more than 20% of scholarships to international athletes will not recieve state funds.
also even private schools receive state funding.
This could also be done by the federal government although may not make as much sense.
If the College decides to not do this then they won't recieve funding which is fine but the college and it's students will be more expensive
You didn't answer the questions about the Iowa state champion and whether he could get a scholarship somewhere else.
Also, let's pretend that taxes are paying for these scholarships. Because state universities are almost totally funded by the state's residents, do you think it's fair for an out of state athlete to get a scholarship in a different state?
I don't think that our hypothetical Iowa state champion should have to yield a scholarship in his home state to a foreigner. It should be the other way around. He could go somewhere else if he wants, but as has been mentioned multiple times on this thread often times staying in state can give you access to better academic scholarships among other benefits.
Furthermore, the people on the pro Kenyan side here seem to have no problem with allowing every university to become Kenya-U, so don't believe this question is being asked in good faith. If you had your way, he would have no university to go to anyway. Out-of state resident Americans till pay federal taxes, which along with state taxes make up a significant source of funding for public universities.
You, like others here, can continue to make the false claim the taxes due not fund athletic scholarships, but it is simply untrue: money is fungible, taxes make up about half of the funding for public universities (), therefore taxes fund these scholarships. You can say they are routed through the athletic department or whatever. This is no different than taking a dollar bill from your right pocket and putting it in your left. The athletic department is not solvent without the university and therefore without the tax money. You are all simply wrong about these basic economic realities. If you want to send your paycheck to Kenya feel free, but the rest of us would rather not.
You don't even know what my "way" is. You just assume that by offering logical questions, that I must have a side.
As for the hypothetical Kenyan paying taxes, he'll be paying taxes on practically everything he buys in Iowa through sales tax. If he has any kind of part-time or work study job at the university, he'll be paying taxes.
I'm going to guess that you're going to say that doesn't count, and it's not enough. So my question is how much must be spent in taxes on the state and federal level to allow someone to receive an athletic scholarship?
I know this is pointless but once more into the breach. Voters in any state cannot do anything about how their state university's athletic department spends money they have raised themselves. It can't be done. You won't believe that so why don't we revive this thread in five years, unless it keeps going on that long, and see what's happened.
What are you talking about. They pass a bill that Universities that give more than 20% of scholarships to international athletes will not recieve state funds.
also even private schools receive state funding.
This could also be done by the federal government although may not make as much sense.
If the College decides to not do this then they won't recieve funding which is fine but the college and it's students will be more expensive
This is all so stupid and really pointless. There is not one state that when push comes to shove will convince their state reps to defund their flagship schools over this. This would destroy the football and basketball programs ability to compete. Football having every possible advantage is waaaaaay more important than if your kid lost his spot on the XC team. Internationals raise the level of athletics and academics at every school in the nation. We would be absolute fools to want to limit the continued excellance of the greatest university system in the world. Voters can vote how they want but the state reps do not have to vote with them. Representative democracy remember. Only about 1/3 of the 6000+ colleges in the US are state schools. So the private schools will be more than happy to kick state U's a$$ with their team of 26 year old europeans and africans. The trophies dont list country of origin when they are sitting in the trophy case.
You didn't answer the questions about the Iowa state champion and whether he could get a scholarship somewhere else.
Also, let's pretend that taxes are paying for these scholarships. Because state universities are almost totally funded by the state's residents, do you think it's fair for an out of state athlete to get a scholarship in a different state?
I don't think that our hypothetical Iowa state champion should have to yield a scholarship in his home state to a foreigner. It should be the other way around. He could go somewhere else if he wants, but as has been mentioned multiple times on this thread often times staying in state can give you access to better academic scholarships among other benefits.
Furthermore, the people on the pro Kenyan side here seem to have no problem with allowing every university to become Kenya-U, so don't believe this question is being asked in good faith. If you had your way, he would have no university to go to anyway. Out-of state resident Americans till pay federal taxes, which along with state taxes make up a significant source of funding for public universities.
You, like others here, can continue to make the false claim the taxes due not fund athletic scholarships, but it is simply untrue: money is fungible, taxes make up about half of the funding for public universities (), therefore taxes fund these scholarships. You can say they are routed through the athletic department or whatever. This is no different than taking a dollar bill from your right pocket and putting it in your left. The athletic department is not solvent without the university and therefore without the tax money. You are all simply wrong about these basic economic realities. If you want to send your paycheck to Kenya feel free, but the rest of us would rather not.
So much standup comedy on this thread. Does anyone actually know of a State Champion who could not get on a college roster because of foreigners ? And whats with this Kenya U business ? The number of Kenyans running in top programs is meagre. A typical cross country meet usually has 80% Americans and below 5% Kenyans. Sometimes zero
I don't think that our hypothetical Iowa state champion should have to yield a scholarship in his home state to a foreigner. It should be the other way around. He could go somewhere else if he wants, but as has been mentioned multiple times on this thread often times staying in state can give you access to better academic scholarships among other benefits.
Furthermore, the people on the pro Kenyan side here seem to have no problem with allowing every university to become Kenya-U, so don't believe this question is being asked in good faith. If you had your way, he would have no university to go to anyway. Out-of state resident Americans till pay federal taxes, which along with state taxes make up a significant source of funding for public universities.
You, like others here, can continue to make the false claim the taxes due not fund athletic scholarships, but it is simply untrue: money is fungible, taxes make up about half of the funding for public universities (), therefore taxes fund these scholarships. You can say they are routed through the athletic department or whatever. This is no different than taking a dollar bill from your right pocket and putting it in your left. The athletic department is not solvent without the university and therefore without the tax money. You are all simply wrong about these basic economic realities. If you want to send your paycheck to Kenya feel free, but the rest of us would rather not.
So much standup comedy on this thread. Does anyone actually know of a State Champion who could not get on a college roster because of foreigners ? And whats with this Kenya U business ? The number of Kenyans running in top programs is meagre. A typical cross country meet usually has 80% Americans and below 5% Kenyans. Sometimes zero
Yes there are actually many such cases in the SEC, which will soon have a 10 man roster limit and has multiple teams with at least a third of that being Kenyans. Your average 4:15-4:20ish mile state champion from Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, or Arkansas has (I have seen it myself) and increasingly will be denied scholarships and roster spots on their home state team for foreigners.
I don't think that our hypothetical Iowa state champion should have to yield a scholarship in his home state to a foreigner. It should be the other way around. He could go somewhere else if he wants, but as has been mentioned multiple times on this thread often times staying in state can give you access to better academic scholarships among other benefits.
Furthermore, the people on the pro Kenyan side here seem to have no problem with allowing every university to become Kenya-U, so don't believe this question is being asked in good faith. If you had your way, he would have no university to go to anyway. Out-of state resident Americans till pay federal taxes, which along with state taxes make up a significant source of funding for public universities.
You, like others here, can continue to make the false claim the taxes due not fund athletic scholarships, but it is simply untrue: money is fungible, taxes make up about half of the funding for public universities (), therefore taxes fund these scholarships. You can say they are routed through the athletic department or whatever. This is no different than taking a dollar bill from your right pocket and putting it in your left. The athletic department is not solvent without the university and therefore without the tax money. You are all simply wrong about these basic economic realities. If you want to send your paycheck to Kenya feel free, but the rest of us would rather not.
You don't even know what my "way" is. You just assume that by offering logical questions, that I must have a side.
As for the hypothetical Kenyan paying taxes, he'll be paying taxes on practically everything he buys in Iowa through sales tax. If he has any kind of part-time or work study job at the university, he'll be paying taxes.
I'm going to guess that you're going to say that doesn't count, and it's not enough. So my question is how much must be spent in taxes on the state and federal level to allow someone to receive an athletic scholarship?
I don't think it is hyperbole, it is simply the logical conclusion on allowing foreigners to take American scholarships at an unlimited rate. Coaches at every school that can't get top American recruits will be reduced to just out Kenyaning each other to stay competitive. I will remind you that this Texas bill would not even ban this practice completely, just put a reasonable a cap.
Also your idea of a Kenyan athlete doing a work study genuinely made me laugh out loud, so thanks for that. If you had actually seen any of these situations of up-close you would understand how unbelievable that is. Getting these guys to just show up to class and practice is often like herding cats, they aren't holding down a part time job at the book store as well.
And yes, even if they work part time as a brain surgeon during the summer and pay more taxes than your average middle class American, I would still just like to give that scholarships to an 18 year old from my own country, as offensive as that I know might be to some.
You don't even know what my "way" is. You just assume that by offering logical questions, that I must have a side.
As for the hypothetical Kenyan paying taxes, he'll be paying taxes on practically everything he buys in Iowa through sales tax. If he has any kind of part-time or work study job at the university, he'll be paying taxes.
I'm going to guess that you're going to say that doesn't count, and it's not enough. So my question is how much must be spent in taxes on the state and federal level to allow someone to receive an athletic scholarship?
I don't think it is hyperbole, it is simply the logical conclusion on allowing foreigners to take American scholarships at an unlimited rate. Coaches at every school that can't get top American recruits will be reduced to just out Kenyaning each other to stay competitive. I will remind you that this Texas bill would not even ban this practice completely, just put a reasonable a cap.
Also your idea of a Kenyan athlete doing a work study genuinely made me laugh out loud, so thanks for that. If you had actually seen any of these situations of up-close you would understand how unbelievable that is. Getting these guys to just show up to class and practice is often like herding cats, they aren't holding down a part time job at the book store as well.
And yes, even if they work part time as a brain surgeon during the summer and pay more taxes than your average middle class American, I would still just like to give that scholarships to an 18 year old from my own country, as offensive as that I know might be to some.
I don't think so.
You don't know who I am, or what I've seen, so you should just focus my arguments.
Do I really expect a Kenyan athlete to be working at school? No, but I wanted to take your tax argument off the table. And you did that yourself by saying, even if foreigners did pay more taxes that the average middle class American, that doesn't matter. So don't use taxes as an argument anymore.
Just tell everyone, like you did in your last paragraph, that you just don't want foreigners getting athletic scholarships because they're foreign.
I don't think it is hyperbole, it is simply the logical conclusion on allowing foreigners to take American scholarships at an unlimited rate. Coaches at every school that can't get top American recruits will be reduced to just out Kenyaning each other to stay competitive. I will remind you that this Texas bill would not even ban this practice completely, just put a reasonable a cap.
Also your idea of a Kenyan athlete doing a work study genuinely made me laugh out loud, so thanks for that. If you had actually seen any of these situations of up-close you would understand how unbelievable that is. Getting these guys to just show up to class and practice is often like herding cats, they aren't holding down a part time job at the book store as well.
And yes, even if they work part time as a brain surgeon during the summer and pay more taxes than your average middle class American, I would still just like to give that scholarships to an 18 year old from my own country, as offensive as that I know might be to some.
I don't think so.
You don't know who I am, or what I've seen, so you should just focus my arguments.
Do I really expect a Kenyan athlete to be working at school? No, but I wanted to take your tax argument off the table. And you did that yourself by saying, even if foreigners did pay more taxes that the average middle class American, that doesn't matter. So don't use taxes as an argument anymore.
Just tell everyone, like you did in your last paragraph, that you just don't want foreigners getting athletic scholarships because they're foreign.
I said exactly that in a post about 6 pages back, so it's not like I have been trying to keep my desire to not give foreigners scholarships a secret. And if you are also admitting that your work-study Kenyan is a piece of fiction, I thick we can we at least agree that this is American taxpayer money funding these scholarships, so I don't think that is a moot point after-all.
There is actually nothing wrong with wanting to give scholarships at public universities to Americans. As I have stated, I would expect any other country on Earth to do the same, including Kenya if they were hypothetically funding the degrees of some of our non NCAA sports. I think educating our own children makes the U.S. better. Educating other peoples children at their expense does not. It's absolutely that simple.
The whole "you don't want them to get a scholarship because they are foreign" is missing the entire point that what is bringing attention is the overage "freshman" who have been running professionally overseas and the recruiting agencies setting up shop in Kenya to funnel them in. If this stayed how it was in decades ago, some schools recruiting from high school champs in Jamaica or at the English schools XC championships this wouldn't be bubbling up as such an issue. It's that it's reached the point of absurdity that "freshman of the week" awards are going to 27 year old professional runners and schools having entire lineups of foreign runners.
Also someone made the point that some schools HAVE TO recruit overseas, but that type of thing builds on itself. A kid I know just went through the recruiting process and was told by a runner who left one of those schools not to go there, that all it is is professional runners training on their own. It wouldn't be hard to change that for some of these schools by bringing in Americans and actually coaching.
I know this is pointless but once more into the breach. Voters in any state cannot do anything about how their state university's athletic department spends money they have raised themselves. It can't be done. You won't believe that so why don't we revive this thread in five years, unless it keeps going on that long, and see what's happened.
What are you talking about. They pass a bill that Universities that give more than 20% of scholarships to international athletes will not recieve state funds.
also even private schools receive state funding.
This could also be done by the federal government although may not make as much sense.
If the College decides to not do this then they won't recieve funding which is fine but the college and it's students will be more expensive
The law would have to include scholarships to all foreign students, not just athletes. It would likely be tied up in the courts for a while but let's assume it passes and a school loses state funding. Who gets hurt here? A lot of those foreign students, athletes, whatever you want to call them, probably have offers from other schools and will just take one of them. But now your average non scholarship in state student, probably upwards of 10,000 of them if we're talking about a state university in a Power 4 conference, are looking at maybe doubling what they need to pay to go to school.
All of this would be done to benefit a handful of resident athletes in sports that the general public really doesn't care about. I suspect there could be opposition from coaches and fans of sports that the general public does care about who won't be keen on losing their power forward from Serbia or their 320 pound lineman from Fiji especially because they know that those athletes will just take a scholarship at a different state university or a private school. There will be opposition from the academic side of universities as well when they can't give money to international students they really want. Finally, at least I think finally, if you really play this out logically, if your goal is to make sure kids who live in your state whose parents pay taxes in that state don't lose a scholarship to an athlete whose parents don't pay tax money to your state the law would need to forbid scholarships to out of state students as well as foreign ones.
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
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addition
You don't even know what my "way" is. You just assume that by offering logical questions, that I must have a side.
As for the hypothetical Kenyan paying taxes, he'll be paying taxes on practically everything he buys in Iowa through sales tax. If he has any kind of part-time or work study job at the university, he'll be paying taxes.
I'm going to guess that you're going to say that doesn't count, and it's not enough. So my question is how much must be spent in taxes on the state and federal level to allow someone to receive an athletic scholarship?
I don't think it is hyperbole, it is simply the logical conclusion on allowing foreigners to take American scholarships at an unlimited rate. Coaches at every school that can't get top American recruits will be reduced to just out Kenyaning each other to stay competitive. I will remind you that this Texas bill would not even ban this practice completely, just put a reasonable a cap.
Also your idea of a Kenyan athlete doing a work study genuinely made me laugh out loud, so thanks for that. If you had actually seen any of these situations of up-close you would understand how unbelievable that is. Getting these guys to just show up to class and practice is often like herding cats, they aren't holding down a part time job at the book store as well.
And yes, even if they work part time as a brain surgeon during the summer and pay more taxes than your average middle class American, I would still just like to give that scholarships to an 18 year old from my own country, as offensive as that I know might be to some.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Most foreign athletes at most schools work. They are not eligible for federal workstudy so they have to apply for S.S. cards and are required to work on campus. They cannot go work at McDonalds because they have student visa's not work visa's. Many have no money and usually work some of the hardest jobs on campus like working in the cafeteria. Many of them send the money home to their family and keep very little for themselves. They get taxed for their job the same as you but get zero of the benefits that you do outside of helping to fund their own scholarship that an inferior American should get over them. They definitely contribute more than the entitled state champion that thinks everything should be handed to him. Higher ed was never meant to be just for U.S. citizens. No one makes you go to college. Stop thinking we are owed anything. Earn it or go somewhere else.
You don't even know what my "way" is. You just assume that by offering logical questions, that I must have a side.
As for the hypothetical Kenyan paying taxes, he'll be paying taxes on practically everything he buys in Iowa through sales tax. If he has any kind of part-time or work study job at the university, he'll be paying taxes.
I'm going to guess that you're going to say that doesn't count, and it's not enough. So my question is how much must be spent in taxes on the state and federal level to allow someone to receive an athletic scholarship?
Not buying this excuse. I just looked at the LSU cross country roster. I see 24 runners. Most are In-State. I see only one Kenyan out of 24.
Secondly, there are Louisiana State schools offering scholarships to 4:40 milers. You can excel at such schools.
I don't think it is hyperbole, it is simply the logical conclusion on allowing foreigners to take American scholarships at an unlimited rate. Coaches at every school that can't get top American recruits will be reduced to just out Kenyaning each other to stay competitive. I will remind you that this Texas bill would not even ban this practice completely, just put a reasonable a cap.
Also your idea of a Kenyan athlete doing a work study genuinely made me laugh out loud, so thanks for that. If you had actually seen any of these situations of up-close you would understand how unbelievable that is. Getting these guys to just show up to class and practice is often like herding cats, they aren't holding down a part time job at the book store as well.
And yes, even if they work part time as a brain surgeon during the summer and pay more taxes than your average middle class American, I would still just like to give that scholarships to an 18 year old from my own country, as offensive as that I know might be to some.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Most foreign athletes at most schools work. They are not eligible for federal workstudy so they have to apply for S.S. cards and are required to work on campus. They cannot go work at McDonalds because they have student visa's not work visa's. Many have no money and usually work some of the hardest jobs on campus like working in the cafeteria. Many of them send the money home to their family and keep very little for themselves. They get taxed for their job the same as you but get zero of the benefits that you do outside of helping to fund their own scholarship that an inferior American should get over them. They definitely contribute more than the entitled state champion that thinks everything should be handed to him. Higher ed was never meant to be just for U.S. citizens. No one makes you go to college. Stop thinking we are owed anything. Earn it or go somewhere else.
I can assure you coaches are not allowing their Kenyan athletes put in late night work in the school cafeteria. I will concede maybe some foreign graduate students do, but Solomon Kipchoge and Viktor Kiprop are not.
I do not have to go anywhere else, I was born here and plan to stay the rest of my life. You can keep using the word entitled if it makes you feel better, but an 18 year old American state champion is entitled to a scholarship over a foreigner 10 years his senior. The Kenyan is more than welcome to come here and study, he will just have to pay like the vast majority of Americans do.
Yes there are actually many such cases in the SEC, which will soon have a 10 man roster limit and has multiple teams with at least a third of that being Kenyans. Your average 4:15-4:20ish mile state champion from Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, or Arkansas has (I have seen it myself) and increasingly will be denied scholarships and roster spots on their home state team for foreigners.
I replied to this wrong thread above
Not buying this excuse. I just looked at the LSU cross country roster. I see 24 runners. Most are In-State. I see only one Kenyan out of 24. Secondly, there are Louisiana State schools offering scholarships to 4:40 milers. You can excel at such schools.
Yes there are actually many such cases in the SEC, which will soon have a 10 man roster limit and has multiple teams with at least a third of that being Kenyans. Your average 4:15-4:20ish mile state champion from Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, or Arkansas has (I have seen it myself) and increasingly will be denied scholarships and roster spots on their home state team for foreigners.
And which SEC school has a roster where a 3rd a Kenyans as you are claiming?
Mississippi state has zero Kenyans
LSU has one Tennessee has zero Ole Miss has zero Auburn has one
Based on this sample size, Kenyans are about 1% of SEC rosters. I see a lot of ill informed xenophobia. Foreigners dont dominate cross country rosters much less Kenyans.
The topic is scholarships. Some of the best programs like Iowa State and Oklahoma State average 1/2 of their scorers foreigners. Most of the Kenyans are on full rides while Americans are walkons.
The topic is scholarships. Some of the best programs like Iowa State and Oklahoma State average 1/2 of their scorers foreigners. Most of the Kenyans are on full rides while Americans are walkons.
Only on warped LRC are Iowa State and Oklahoma State viewed as a desirable institutions.
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