Beatrice Chebet World record 5km 13:52 Cursa dels Nassos

It wasn't meant to be a summary, but rather a counter-example which seems to contradict claims made earlier in the thread. Recall we were not talking about EPO's alleged effects in the '90s, but were talking about Beatrice Chebet's 13:54, and indirectly whether it can be attributed to shoes, or drugs. According to Armstronglivs, the big performance jumps we are seeing in the recent supershoe era can only be attributed to "advances in doping" and "super shoes getting worse" wondered why we were still talking about supershoes since they date back to 2016. If there were recent advances in doping, surely it's reasonable to look at the past 30 years. To be comparable with the supershoe era, I suppose I could have looked back to 2015 for performances attributed to alleged "doping advances".

You also told me to include the men, but we can see that comparing the men to the women for the last 30 years looks very different. Looking at the men, whether it is 10 years, 30 years, or 40 years, seems to suggest against any recent advances in doping.

You're dishonest as usual. I didn't say the recent advances can ONLY be attributable to doping but that doping will have contributed and likely more than advances in shoe technology. It is you who have argued it hasn't contributed - that it is the shoes or whatever.

The data is that doping hasn't reduced in sports; it is being found in every sport and often at all levels, ages, and in both sexes; that it is a billion-Euro black market world-wide annually and athlete surveys have shown a high incidence at championship level. The doping scandal in Kenya - which isn't alone - is of epidemic proportions. The logic which this demonstrates - and is accepted by athletes, trainers, physios and doctors - not to mention antidoping - is that doping confers advantage, so it clearly plays a role in elite performance.

Since cheat shoes, Americans times have become absolutely clownish ridiculous faster than they ever have. If you can’t see this or don’t know this you don’t follow the sport at all.

I think Kipyegon has a better shot at this one

I don't think this is realistic either unless there's another huge leap in shoe tech. I'll reassess after seeing what Kipyegon and Chebet do at 5000 next season, but I think 13:52-13:56 is probably very close to the limit of what female physiology is capable of with current tech

Does EPO dissolve in red bull? Asking for a friend.

I'm not dishonest. You just can't remember what you said yesterday. As usual.

When I talked about "all the factors" you said it was "a long-winded description of advances in doping." What else can this mean but that doping is the only factor? What other factors do you suggest there are then?

Oh great! I would love to see that data. Can you point me the data showing that doping hasn't reduced? You mentioned "athlete survey". The latest survey I have seen is from 2011, and the various estimates from that same event ranged from 9%-47% (95% CI).

I'm not interested in "the logic" "accepted by athletes, trainers, physios and doctors". Do you have any elite performance data showing that an advantage was conferred?

Speaking of anti-doping, WADA just published a report saying "WADA publishes data supporting a deterrent effect of testing".

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So you seriously think that this will have no impact? As only a doping apologist would claim that

It obviously means there is less out of competition testing in Kenya which is where athletes will dope not in competitions

'Of concern for WADA had been the significant cut, by almost 90% from the previous year's allocation, by the Government in the annual operational budget of ADAK and the potential impact this would have on athletes in Kenya'

I have seen no news since this that funding for testing has been returned to normal levels

wada-ama.org

WADA optimistic that Kenyan Government will reconsider budget cuts to anti-doping program

This week, the World Anti-Doping Agency’s Africa Office Director, Rodney Swigelaar, met with the Government of Kenya Cabinet Secretary for Youth Affairs, Creative Economy and Sports, the Hon. Onesimus Kipchumba Murkomen, in N...

Open link

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Your description did fit the likely advances in doping - even though you thought you were describing something else. There may be a number of factors in improving performances at the top but doping will certainly be among them. But not to doping deniers.

So, no data, just more gospel.

Can you point me to the census of all the athletes who have doped, since they obviously admitted it in their forms. You are beyond moronic.

Since you are so f****** stupid you would also say white collar crime and black market crime don't exist because there is no "data", as the offenders don't reveal in their accounts and their transactions what they are doing - just like dopers don't admit they are doping. And like most dopers, they aren't caught. How do you manage to tie your shoelaces?

You are the one who told me "the data is that doping hasn't reduced in sports".

Did you lie? If you didn't lie, can't you just point me to that data? The moron would blindly believe such things without data.

Otherwise, I have to go with WADA showing us with data that increased testing is a deterrent.

And you are the one who alleges there were recent signficant advances in doping, and that this is likely, and that doping is a factor in improving performances at the top.

Are you telling me now that these were always baseless allegations with no data because dopers don't dope and tell?

Which data exactly?

You don't know what "data" is. You think it is only some bs figures a bean-counter like you plasters on a graph, that in this case would miraculously be of all the dopers who have come forward to obligingly identify themselves. The factors I listed above about doping constitute data because they are ascertainable and established facts, even if the aren't your childish numbers.