100mpw in high school

JimL- could you comment on what you think of the York HS approach used by Joe Newton?

Greenliner,

I thought people may have heard enough of me!!! lol. As I'm not from the US I can only comment on the few posts I've read here so i'm not going to have a great idea. But, if what I've read is right he shouldn't be allowed anywhere near HS kids, athletically at least, he's murderous!! Alot of HS and college coaches are more interested in feathering their ego's, or looking after their jobs, rather than the welfare of their athletes. HS is a stepping stone, not the be all and end all of athletics -just the start of hopefully a long career, not the end!!! Whether that tag applies to Joe Newton I don't know. Could be a good bloke personally, though, I don't know him. Not for me to judge that aspect as it is a separate issue from the track and there's more to our personalities than that (hopefully!). How old is he? If he's old he may just be a little set in his ways. Someone may fill me in more.

Jim

I tell these kids that high school cross country is not a stepping stone. it's not a meal ticket to get financial help to go to college.

When they put on their school uniform, they represent their school and their town and in doing that, they should do the very best that they can.

If otherwise, what's the use of having coaches? To practice at working up to 75% of their potential, so they may be fresh enough for a scholarship so they can defray the cost of their personal education?

I stood up in the bus before the first track meet before we took off and told them that the town they represent, is the town they spent the most important years of their lives....They ate food from stores their neighbors owned, when they became sick they were taken care of by doctors who were also their neighbors, they drank the water from some water plant where another neighbor worked all night to make clean enough to drink....

They owe their town their "best efforts"..

Maybe not 100 mile weeks.....but a lot of miles and a lot of work...High School is not a stepping stone.

Even the Caly guys who ran themselves in the ground in the 70's (Hulst, Nelson, Dani, Assuma Bros)..I look up to much more than the guy who did just enough to take care of himself and get a scholarship....

I can tell you from experience that only a handfull of high school kids can get away with running high mileage. I tried it this winter going into my track season, putting on 8 straight weeks of 100-120 miles per week. I peaked half way through the season, and have developed two stress fractures because of the high mileage. I luckily have one more year of high school left, but never again am I taking the risk of high mileage.

Re. swimming, it is the high intensity anaerobic workouts that cause the short term careers there, IMHO (and experience).

JimL- I am the father of a set of twins who ran for Newton and then went on to run D3 for 4 years and well-known poster about York. My kids thrived in his high mileage training; one of my kids still holds York's record for most miles during the summer (1311)and by the time they got to college, training 80 mile weeks was easy for them. They never burned out, and still have such a love for running that both twins are high school teachers and XC coaches. (Well, one is heading to grad school full time in the fall so will work with the University of IA team, I think). One won the only marathon he ever ran (I get a kick out of the fact that Dick Beardsley was second- though Dick is,like, twice as old as my son :-)).

As you might expect, I respectfully disagree with you. I find that kids can do the miles and they can do well. Both Marius Bakken and Don Sage were York runners, for top names people might recognize. And other York runners are still doing well, though at a more modest level- Adam Roche, Peter Cioni, Jim Akita. Newton's current HS team has something like 9 kids running under 9.40 for 3200 and 5 under 9.20, 5 under 4.20 and a bunch of sub 2 min 800 runners. Something works in Elmhurst. 11th grader Sean McNamara is a 4.12/9.00 runner, and is the top returning xc runner in state for the fall.

Yes, Newton is old school. He is not completely set in his ways, though- but he does stress high miles and he gets out 130 runners each year that put the training in. Every summer 20 will run over 1000 miles. Details of the training are in his book.

My question is, I guess, how do you judge success? I do not judge it solely by turning out runners who can run 3.38 1500s; rather, I judge it by whether they still run, compete, enjoy and learn. And I would never say this is for everyone. I think it takes an exceptional coach to provide motivation and sense of team- which is where Newton excels. But that kids can do this and do well, I think is pretty apparent.

JimL- I am the father of a set of twins who ran for Newton and then went on to run D3 for 4 years and well-known poster about York. My kids thrived in his high mileage training; one of my kids still holds York's record for most miles during the summer (1311)and by the time they got to college, training 80 mile weeks was easy for them. They never burned out, and still have such a love for running that both twins are high school teachers and XC coaches. (Well, one is heading to grad school full time in the fall so will work with the University of IA team, I think). One won the only marathon he ever ran (I get a kick out of the fact that Dick Beardsley was second- though Dick is,like, twice as old as my son :-)).

As you might expect, I respectfully disagree with you. I find that kids can do the miles and they can do well. Both Marius Bakken and Don Sage were York runners, for top names people might recognize. And other York runners are still doing well, though at a more modest level- Adam Roche, Peter Cioni, Jim Akita. Newton's current HS team has something like 9 kids running under 9.40 for 3200 and 5 under 9.20, 5 under 4.20 and a bunch of sub 2 min 800 runners. Something works in Elmhurst. 11th grader Sean McNamara is a 4.12/9.00 runner, and is the top returning xc runner in state for the fall.

Yes, Newton is old school. He is not completely set in his ways, though- but he does stress high miles and he gets out 130 runners each year that put the training in. Every summer 20 will run over 1000 miles. Details of the training are in his book.

My question is, I guess, how do you judge success? I do not judge it solely by turning out runners who can run 3.38 1500s; rather, I judge it by whether they still run, compete, enjoy and learn. And I would never say this is for everyone. I think it takes an exceptional coach to provide motivation and sense of team- which is where Newton excels. But that kids can do this and do well, I think is pretty apparent.

Firstly, the odd example don't make for a successful system, there will always be someone. Marius Bakken is an enormously talented athlete and may have been strong enough and talented enough to cope better than most. You have to also look at how many fall by the wayside in the process and don't go on. Is the success across the board both short and long term? They may have been great short term results becuaes of the training but how much of the carried thru across the board? Did your kids perform to their potential long term? The inability of the US to produce a bevy of international stars despite the 10's of thousand that run at HS and college is a testimony to the "success" of the system. I repeat myself alot, but that's the bottom line and that's where the system ultimately judged. Let's face it-it's a failure.

Secondly, success-first an foremeost, the enjoyment you get while being involved, maybe improved character in life, achieveing of ultimate goal whether that be HS or college or something bigger (goals are personal), and whether you did achieve your potential, that part is what coaching is all about, not so much a statistical performance (it's nice) but whether in the context of a carreer you got the most out of your ability.

Sorry for the double post- the first got kicked back to me and so I resent it.

Your second comment first- Newton is therefore tremendously successful, since he has such impact and fosters a life-long love of running- and character buidling. And I've kep tabs on a bevy of runners since my kids graduated nearly 6 years ago. Sheesh, has it been that long?! York had something like 4 All-Americans at one time- Sage, Costello (throws), Cicero (female distance) and Erickson (hurdles). And some rated D3 runners- Akita, Lawrence, etc. Plus some Big Ten runners- Hobbes and Stasiulis, Roche- and then Cioni at Princeton, Lucchesi at U IL.

And for your first- so, what DOES work? Neither high nor lower mileage seems to turn out US runners with international status. So what do we do? (My kids were 4.30/935 runners in HS, and 14 point and 31 point runners in college). Sage was tough from the get go- I first met Don when he was an 8th grader and he became close friends with us all.

PS. look at the MN state meet results. You will see a 9th grader who ran 4.20 and and 8th grader who ran 9.29... the potential is there, but we have to find it. Howerver, is it really training that is at issue?

How do other 100 mile a week athletes in HS and college get through their classes and studies without falling asleep? I know how I felt some mornings at UNR while cranking up the miles and trying to study. Not sure if my lecturers ever noticed but I was ready for a nap during many morning classes. But then I feel like that at work nowadays.

>PS. look at the MN state meet results. You will see a 9th grader who ran 4.20 and and 8th grader who ran 9.29... the potential is there, but we have to find it. Howerver, is it really training that is at issue?

Training's not always the issue, there are numerous other factors the affect long term performance-motivation, other interests or committments etc...

>And for your first- so, what DOES work? Neither high nor lower mileage seems to turn out US runners with international status. So what do we do?

There's more than one way to kill an athlete!!! An over-kill of hard quality work (high volume intervals probably being one) has the same effects. Actually worse at times because you're stressing and tears down your systems so much. More the reason young athletes burn out over here in my country. Younger athletes (u/17) are actually less adapt to doing hard intense work than they are to volume work-do the days but not the volume. If I was to get it wrong I'd actually perfer to get it wrong on the volume side-you do last a little longer! The key, I suppose, is to find the right balance,according to age and background and is probably subjective. When it comes down to it who really knows, alot have opinions, some opinions are more educated than others, but what suits one athlete may not suit another. Mzny athletes have had the same success on different types of programs (alot of the basic principles are usually similar though).

My "experience" with college or HS is that they seems to go too far one way or the other (volume or intensity) in the pursuit of school results at the expense of the longer term. In the end, either way, alot get "hurt". Everything is directed (obsessively at times) towards performing at college, which is not the way to go-depending on your goals, it may be important, but it is only a stepping stone to success(hopefully)in the longer term, not the be all and end all.

Enough of the bullshit. Tell us about all of the athletes you've coached Jim L? Let's hear some REAL examples?

Lets' hear it. wrote:

Enough of the bullshit. Tell us about all of the athletes you've coached Jim L? Let's hear some REAL examples?

I agree. Reading some of these "posts" leads me to think that that JimL is either a fraud, a 20 year old boy wanting attention, or drunk when he uses the computer.

Look at this unaltered gem:

<<<

There's more than one way to kill an athlete!!! An over-kill of hard quality work (high volume intervals probably being one) has the same effects. Actually worse at times because you're stressing and tears down your systems so much. More the reason young athletes burn out over here in my country. Younger athletes (u/17) are actually less adapt to doing hard intense work than they are to volume work-do the days but not the volume. If I was to get it wrong I'd actually perfer to get it wrong on the volume side-you do last a little longer! The key, I suppose, is to find the right balance,according to age and background and is probably subjective. When it comes down to it who really knows, alot have opinions, some opinions are more educated than others, but what suits one athlete may not suit another. Mzny athletes have had the same success on different types of programs (alot of the basic principles are usually similar though).

>>>

I think there is one sentence in there without mistakes.

JimL: I reccomend this course of action; after every sentence and I mean EVERY one, write "Fair Dinkum mate!"

We Americans have no idea what it means and think it is ridiculous and we retort less aggressively because we feel like we are making fun of a retarded person. At least I do.

One thing you have to accept is that the U.S. and the whole world has had many HS runners who ran 4000 miles a year and achieved good results and had no short-term OR long-term health problems from such training. We all accept that there are many ways to skin a cat, and that there have also been many 4:10, 9:00-flat and faster HS runners that have achieved this level on paltry mileage.

You have to accept that they did this NOT because it was the best way, but because it was the EASIEST way.

Wish I was 20! No such luck! Drunk on the computer sounds ok too-could go with a beer! Thought i'd inflict some "culture" on you guys!! lol. Actually though, I never realised this was an English course. Though it was an athletic message board. I've had a million posts already (what's the record) so I can't be stuffed checking the grammar-I think "fair dinkum mate's" come up rarely, only in reply to your posts. not after every sentence every post-while you're correcting you best get that right.

Currently my best senior athlete ranks no.4 in the country, no. 6 in the Commonwealth (US don't compete there). Closing on Olympic quali but too late for our country now anyway. Broke his arm before our trials so that put him out. Way it goes, just have to move on and work towards worlds next year. Had numerous junior champs and medallists over time but over focusing more on senior athletes now. Doesn't feel so restricting in regards to training.

>"You have to accept that they did this NOT because it was the best way, but because it was the EASIEST way"

Actually i'll accept it was probably the SMARTEST way- not the easiest way. The US international records demonstrates the success of the system.

I try to base my posts on both years of exerience and my qualifications as an "Exercise Physiologist"

(http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/00964.2003v1) and do enjoy the debates. This particular topic was a passion, something I've seen thru my experience and backgroung numerous times.

>We Americans have no idea what it means and think it is ridiculous and we retort less aggressively because we feel like we are making fun of a retarded person. At least I do.

One thing i don't do in my posts at least is try not to lower myself and make it personal. But one thing for sure, no matter what i'll always be smarter than you!!!! Of course nothing personal! You're forgiven!

No more posts-I'm all posted out!! I think my point's been made (and made, and made, and made ....). "youngwithdesire", who originally initiated this thread, probably didn't know what he was geting himself in for! lol

Have a good day.

good job, JimL. While you and I come from different roads, wo both take the long term approach, which, atleast in the US, is far to often ignored.

Agree-thanks very much for that.

Cheers

Jim

It's true check the link out. http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=450511

I'm entitled to to express my opinion, don't have to be no.1 to know what you're doing. About getting athletes to compete to their potential. Do they do that in the US-NO!!!!!!! Look at their results. Must admit you right the RIGHT screenname-it suits you.

No you're not. You don't know jack shit about running, WALKER MAN!!!