All time greatest 800m Runner

Yeah, but no. THOUGHTSLEADER is right.

Then there is the logical question - if Snell wasn't doped to run 1:44.3 on grass 62 years ago, what would he have run if he had doped? 1:43? Even 1:42.8? On grass. With modern shoes on the current tracks? Sub 1:40?

If Keino was doped to run the sea level equivalent of 3:22 (as he did) - what would he have run clean? 3:26? 55 years ago. With modern shoes on the current tracks? 3:23?

It is hard to put yourself back 55 years ago. Everything is so recent here.

You forgot your pills again.

I'm same. Huge fan of Ovett, but on his overall record you can't make him an all time great 800m runner. He probably might have run 1:42 high, or 1:43 low in a peaked all out attempted, had he not trained as an endurance based 1500m runner.

Given the endurance he showed in winter x-country, and the famous half marathon he treated as a training run, it would have been fascinating to see what he might have done over 5000m, especially had not the fall over the railings and the post LA heart problems.

Even way past his best, he beat Jack Buckner (that year's European 5000m Champion) and Tim Hutchings (fourth in the Olympic 5000m) in a canter in the Commonwealth Games 5000m.

Yeah.

What about a doped Elliott 63 years ago? A solo 3:33.5?

Coe? Sub 1:40 43 years ago?

Gebrselassie? Sub 12:30 28 years ago?

It isn't too late. You can still take them.

Not very convinced from your sort of reasoning, it seems.

I sometimes used to visit elderly patients in a nursing home. I'm used to your ramblings.

I'll give a name which shows how tough the task of ranking Ovett is. Nils Schumann. Like where do we rank him alltime over the 800m? Schumann won in Sydney beating some heavyweight all time guys - Kipketer, Sepeng, Borzakovskiy (yes very young YB but still YB and still was likely on the good Russian magic vodka even then). Schumann also won a European 800m chip beating Kipketer, who even though had his health issues that winter, had still run 1.43.74 and 1.43.18 going into that meet. Similar PR (1.44.09 v 1.44.16). He didn't make another 2 OG finals like Ovett did but he make 2 world finals in a super tough era and won a world cup 800m in 98 which is still something.

Purely over 800m these two are very similar - not just in resume but also in style. They didn't have elite PR's (we can argue if Ovett could have run faster but reality is he didn't), but we two of the toughest and most savvy tactical 800m runners we have ever seen - even notoriously so (and I raced Schumann twice and can attest to that). They even won their respective Olympic titles in near identical races 1.45.40 v 1.45.08 with big last 200s (in the 25.0 range)

Bottom line, I think these guys are so even career wise over 800m, they make it difficult on each other to slot into the all time greatest 10. Obviously Ovett is a far greater MD runner but like Coe, it's because he is one of history's greatest 1500m/milers despite never been able to win a major title over the distance (I'm not ranking the Euros as a major). We already have a clear top 6 so there are only 4 spots left in the Pantheon - I think if we want to slot Ovett in there we can't overlook Schumann and is he a top 10 great? Difficult but fun conversation.

Here's a better list:

Olaf Beyer: Turned on the afterburners like a Mig Foxbat in the last 100m of the 1978 Euros to destroy a prime Coe and Ovett. If he hadn't blown his ankle apart in 1979, Beyer would have dominated Moscow, and we wouldn't be taking so much about Coe and Ovett from that point onward. The overall impact would have been huge for East German middle distance running at the time.

Don Paige: Destroyed a prime Coe in peak condition who was burning for revenge right after the Moscow 1980 Olympics. This race basically proved that Paige was almost a lock for gold in 1980. Without the Jimmy Carter boycott, Paige would have been part of a likely memorable US distance sweep at those games which would have covered the 800m through to the marathon distances. That would have been a huge global impact for US distance running and if such events had happened on Russian soil, they would have even peacefully ended the Cold War 8 years earlier.

Joaquim Cruz: Completely destroyed everyone in LA 1984 running with one leg shorter than the other. With proper timing equipment he would have been a world record holder for 800m from 1984 onwards. With the double Olympic title and world record from 1984, Cruz would have likely inspired the Brazil soccer team to win the Mexico 1986 soccer World Cup. Such a bounce back for the Brazil soccer team after the tragic disappointment of the Spain 1982 soccer World Cup would have probably changed the economic of trajectory of soccer-mad Brazil for the next 4 decades which would have obviously had a huge global impact given the geographic size and population of the country.

Dave Wottle: The golf cap, the come from behind strategy, the race boiling down to a Cold War classic duel on West German soil over the last 30m; it's unlikely there will ever be a greater 800m race than the 1972 Olympic final. With proper media coverage the global impact of the race would have been much greater, but this race alone propels Dave Wottle
to being one of the greatest 800m runners of all time.

Said Aouita: The guy was a 5k runner winning gold at the distance in LA 1984. Four years later in Seoul 1988, he decides to move down to 800m - less than a 6th of the distance of his specialist event. But just before the games disaster struck and he sustained a serious leg
injury. With his right leg in plaster on the start line of the 800m final he literally limped around the track into a bronze medal finish just behind Ereng and Cruz, two of the all-time greats of the distance. Without the injury Aouita was surely a gold medallist in 1988 and given that he was a 5K specialist this makes him one of the greatest natural 800m runners
ever. With a second Olympic gold, Morocco would have likely built another high-speed train in his honour and this may have well triggered the development a high-speed rail infrastructure across the African continent. It does not take much to understand that this would have had huge global ramifications.

Nick Symmonds: The guy won just how many US championships back-to-back?? People forget that during Symmonds’ era, the depth in US 800m was so brutally tough that winning a US title was, for many seasons, harder than winning an Olympic or World title. With the global champs occurring shortly after the US champs, Symmonds was always at a disadvantage and yet he made it to the final in London 2012 and partook in one of the greatest 800m finals of all time. Given the revelations of the sport since then, it is now likely that if the proper antidoping laws had been enforced, Symmonds could have been the legitimate Olympic champ in 2012 or at least a silver medallist. As Symmonds is a natural superstar, an Olympic title in 2012 would have given him a huge global impact.

Good points.

Reasoning on Coevett-level.

This thread has an unintended bias towards runners in the professional era - which is largely the 80's onwards. That gave so many advantages to professional athletes that the amateurs didn't have - quite apart from improved tracks and footwear. Athletes in the amateur era tended to have shorter careers. For that reason I am less persuaded by a lengthy career, which was enabled in the professional era, and more by the heights of achievement reached by an athlete. On that basis I rate Ralph Doubell higher, as he accomplished an Olympic gold (against high calibre competition) and a world record in the same race. He subsequently succumbed to injury. As much as Americans in particular have been captured by the Wottle legend, Doubell ran a far better smarter race and won more convincingly, while equalling the world record. I also think it was a better race than Ovett's victory - which was enabled by the tactical ineptitude of Coe, the better 800m runner. Doubell can't be overlooked.

Agree Doubell is overlooked, but the thread isn't about what someone could have done versus what they did. His injuries limited his career. Using your logic, though, Mal Whitfield should be much higher -- two Oly golds.

I just used his sort of argumentation.

But for this worst of all letsrun posters, his arguments who should destroy Keino are "rambling" when used for Snell or Elliott.

Fifteen years later, and you have all forgotten about the Grizzly Bear.

Had Kipketer not been such a salmon fiend, we would still be talking about the Grizzly Bear to this day…

I am not rating Doubell in the basis of what he could have done but what he achieved. How many 800m runners won Olympic gold and set a wr in the same race? Juantorena and Rudisha are the only others who achieved that. (Whitfield, who competed in what I consider a pre-modern era, never held the world record for the distance. His best time was nearly 4 seconds slower than Snell's, set less than a decade later.)

I know you can't follow them. That's ok. So you're slow. Not all runners are equal either.

You may have a point with Kipketer, although stating he would have won in 96 is conjecture, as Coe was even more of a favourite in 1980 and didn't win! Also have to remember that World titles were run every 2 years and were available for Kipketer throughout his career (at least 6 opportunities between '93 and '03), something which wasn't the case for Coe, who had just 2 chances, 4 years apart and during the 2nd half of his career. It should also be noted that Coe lowered the WR in 2 instalments, by 1.71 secs (a greater margin of dominance than anyone (including Harbig) in the modern era. Running some 16 years later on faster tracks and with some improvements in shoes, Kipketer only managed to lower Coe's mark by 0.62 in 3 goes. I also take issue with your claim that Coe wasn't as dominant as Kipketer. From the Europeans in 78 until the Europeans in 82, that is 4 seasons, Coe was only beaten over 800m (in fact any distance) twice. There isn't much between them in terms of longevity and ranking points (Kipketer has a slight edge), but in terms of the competitions available to both (the Olympics and Europeans), Coe has a better record, and obviously in terms of impact. Kipketer does have a very good resume and there are valid arguments for both

I do strongly disagree that Cruz and Juantorena be ranked ahead of Coe, however. Cruz had 2 great seasons; yes he won the Olympic title in a WR, but lowered the WR by just 0.26secs, which is significantly inferior to Coe's improvement of 1.71 secs. Juantorena won the World Cup in 77, the nearest he had to a world title.

However, Coe had 12 seasons at the very top, 13 if you include his European Indoor gold in 77. He had a more convincing World Cup win than Juantorena's, and while not winning an Olympic gold, I would argue that 2 consecutive silvers is about as close as you get to matching it. At almost 33, at the very end of his career, Coe was still the 2nd fastest man in the world in '89, with 1:43.38, faster than Cruz's pb at his peak.

I would put Cruz above Juantorena due to him having a 2nd Olympic medal (silver from '88). And although Cruz had 4 good seasons at the top (spanning 83 -88), he just hasn't got the longevity or the ranking points to match Coe, let alone the lack of any world records. Coe broke 2 outdoor WRs, 2 indoor WRs and was part of the 4 x 800m relay that held the WR for something like 20 years. Yes, Cruz's 1G and 1S at the Olympics is better than Coe's 2S, but people forget Coe also won golds in the World Cup, European Champs and the European indoor (in the 2nd fastest time ever).