My wife is reading Desi's book and she has a chapter in there about training in Kenya. Says it's not the doping. It's a legit disciplined lifestyle for those who commit and she says the terroir, much like wine, is creating champions.
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tgjear wrote:
My wife is reading Desi's book and she has a chapter in there about training in Kenya. Says it's not the doping. It's a legit disciplined lifestyle for those who commit and she says the terroir, much like wine, is creating champions.
She might know a thing or two about whiskey but you’re being naive if you take her as an expert on Kenyan running scene.
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rightq wrote:
tgjear wrote:
My wife is reading Desi's book and she has a chapter in there about training in Kenya. Says it's not the doping. It's a legit disciplined lifestyle for those who commit and she says the terroir, much like wine, is creating champions.
She might know a thing or two about whiskey but you’re being naive if you take her as an expert on Kenyan running scene.
Who here is an expert?
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tgjear wrote:
Radcliffe failed ABP as well, never forget.
You should forget it. Paula never failed the ABP.
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same old story wrote:
(why would the baseline go down when you drink?)
I'm no expert, but it isn't unheard of that alcohol can affect haemotocrit levels (amongst other blood markers).
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THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
Yeah it will eventually get out there. The final document like we saw for Shelby, Kiprop, McNeal et al. does satisfy me. But until then, there're varying levels of credence that you can give to the accused athlete's defense. Kiprop's and Shelby's were nonsensical, but I'd say this one and Bol's makes me want to see more data. Which would make sense considering the "failed" part of the ABP seem to date back to 2018, and the athlete doesn't have a history of AAFs, missed tests, all while being an athlete that has been in the system for a while.
What is difficult now for any athlete at this stage, is the presumption of guilt, and it is up to the athlete placed on late notice to explain why the findings are probably not due to doping. Like other cases before it, this puts the first time accused athlete against an organization that has been prosecuting ABPs and anti-doping for decades, often together with the adjudicators.
In order to "prove" the ABP, scientists worked for a decade to find and fine tune parameters that usually work in most cases, based on the samples before them, whose results are ultimately decided subjectively by ABP "experts". To combat this on equal terms would require years of science to establish what natural variance looks like, and to what extent external confounders can impact these parameters creating non-doping exceptions, with enough data to generate estimated likelihood, and then research what was going on in the athlete's history, as far back as 2018, and reverse engineer Bayesian equations to explain why thresholds were exceeded. Instead, these questions are not decided by scientists, but by lawyers on tribunals who often defer to the "experts" of the prosecution, against the first time accused athletes, in a short matter of months.
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From the jap. link: "Results: Erythrocyte counts and hemoglobin levels tended to be lower and higher, respectively, with increases in the frequency and amount of drinking."
Hem goes up... but either way, isn't his story that he stopped training and started drinking more after his 26:24 in 2020, and then got caught in May 2020 (and in 2018 and in...)? Weak story...
From the PR: "An example: two of the flagged samples came from May and June 2020."
I tend to believe the AIU experts who decided to prov. ban him for that, not the doper's PR.
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muh altitude
muh b sample
muh peter bol
lmao love seeing all the doping apologists come out.
This dude is one of the most obvious dopers the world has even seen. Remember when he ran sub-27 road 10ks and lapped most of the field at World "Juniors"... all as a supposed "teenager"??
Rhonex was never even subtle. Rocket fuel Ramzi vibes. He couldn't help himself and had to show off. Good riddance.
Looking forward to more Kenyan (and hopefully Ethiopian) busts.
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Oh good, we’ve reached the point where it’s just the same handful of tools arguing among themselves in this thread.
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Lol. That is why Floyd had ABP problems.
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rekrunner wrote:
What is difficult now for any athlete at this stage, is the presumption of guilt, and it is up to the athlete placed on late notice to explain why the findings are probably not due to doping. Like other cases before it, this puts the first time accused athlete against an organization that has been prosecuting ABPs and anti-doping for decades, often together with the adjudicators.
In order to "prove" the ABP, scientists worked for a decade to find and fine tune parameters that usually work in most cases, based on the samples before them, whose results are ultimately decided subjectively by ABP "experts".
Excellent. Delighted to hear that experts and the AIU had decades of experience with the ABP. Well maybe not the AIU - fyi, they aren't even a decade old, rekrunner.
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26'24" on the track with super shoes is already super suspicious.
On the roads, even more.
But...WITHOUT SUPER SHOES? Come on, even Eliud Kipchoge himself never broke 2h04 in non super-shoes.
I have trained with some guys my level while I was in non super shoes and they were. It takes only one workout to understand.
This case has been closed a long time ago.
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astro wrote:
Oh give it a rest. The entire Kenyan pro running community is an utter fraud. I am sick of this crap about how humble and nice these cheats are. They are frauds. They have ruined the sport and cheated others. And it was obvious to anyone who knows anything about doping in sports. What disgusts me is the delusional rationalizations doping apologists came up with. We were told about a "culture of running." Or more laughable still, we were told there was some East African running gene. No other sports insults its own intelligence to that ridiculous degree. And this fraud goes all the way down to the junior level. It is so low rent and so lacking in dignity and self-respect that it is embarrassing. The sport was turned into a laughingstock.
Sir, I understand your reaction but it saddens me that people jump to conclusions and attribute guilt to Kenyan runners who may, in fact, be guiltless.
What do people think about people from Nigeria? Many will immediately think about Nigerians who commit fraud or other reprehensible acts. Is it fair, when in fact most Nigerians are law abiding citizens who simply want to ameliorate their lives?
Do people now think that Brother Colm O'Donnell, coach at St Patrick's Iten, played a part in the Kenyan doping problem?
Sad times.
Disclaimer: Not saying Rhonex is guiltless but rather let the case run its course.
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experts are experienced scientists here wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
What is difficult now for any athlete at this stage, is the presumption of guilt, and it is up to the athlete placed on late notice to explain why the findings are probably not due to doping. Like other cases before it, this puts the first time accused athlete against an organization that has been prosecuting ABPs and anti-doping for decades, often together with the adjudicators.
In order to "prove" the ABP, scientists worked for a decade to find and fine tune parameters that usually work in most cases, based on the samples before them, whose results are ultimately decided subjectively by ABP "experts".
Excellent. Delighted to hear that experts and the AIU had decades of experience with the ABP. Well maybe not the AIU - fyi, they aren't even a decade old, rekrunner.
Sorry. "Decades" applies to "prosecuting anti-doping", and not quite yet the ABP which only started in 2009. Before the AIU was the IAAF, and their anti-doping efforts predates WADA by several more decades. The IAAF was the first federation to ban doping, back in 1928.
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El Keniano wrote:
nothing4free wrote:
Hard to make much sense of this, here's what we know for sure :
- 3 experts agreed that his ABP data pointed to clear doping/manipulating, that's pretty damning
- he hits the bottle, unusual for a pro athlete and not a good sign that he can resist temptation
- he's getting popped because his 2020 values went too low (not training, hitting the bottle) compared to 2018 and 2022. Ok so in 2022 he's got the means to dope and not get popped with a substance in his system. But in 2018 ? Where would he have gotten the funds to set up an advanced doping scheme unbeknownst to his coach (who's seen it all in his career) and management ?Some people here have written that the ABP cases have always been won by doping authorities, but I seem to remember a couple of cyclists who fought and won such cases, Kreuziger for sure and maybe Pellizotti too...ok so I looked it up and the case against Pellizotti was dropped...until he asked for compensation and then he was found guilty, hehe...
I'm afraid if he's cleared the consequences will be devastating for the BP system which, as it is, appears to be on shaky ground confidence-wise. If the ABP reading was caused by his change of lifelyste - stopped training and started drinking - then it's not eliable system at all.
TBH if the ABP doesn't work and flags innocent guys (or even just one) it has to be amended, period. I never understood why Kreuziger wasn't (apparently) awarded damages since they dropped the case after destroying his reputation. If it turns out they got it wrong with Kipruto then there should be consequences, both for the system and the experts.
Some here have mentioned Kiprop but that was not an ABP case unlike Kipruto, at least not directly since he was popped for EPO. Now was he targeted thanks to the ABP ? Yes, most likely.
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OG Coconino Cowboy wrote:
Athletics Integrity Unit are doing some great work.
Just look at that cheating stick figure!
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astro wrote:
Oh give it a rest. The entire Kenyan pro running community is an utter fraud. I am sick of this crap about how humble and nice these cheats are. They are frauds. They have ruined the sport and cheated others. And it was obvious to anyone who knows anything about doping in sports. What disgusts me is the delusional rationalizations doping apologists came up with. We were told about a "culture of running." Or more laughable still, we were told there was some East African running gene. No other sports insults its own intelligence to that ridiculous degree. And this fraud goes all the way down to the junior level. It is so low rent and so lacking in dignity and self-respect that it is embarrassing. The sport was turned into a laughingstock.
Can we just put this up as quote of the day. It's 100 percent correct. Until there is a gene test for EPO (detecting when synthetic EPO turns a gene on), they will keep doing it. The 100s of kenyans are trying to differentiate themselves from each other. It would be stupid not to cheat - when the prize is so large, the risk is so small, and the outcomes of cheating are just back where you started anyway.
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Work Commute Track Club wrote:
Can we just put this up as quote of the day. It's 100 percent correct. Until there is a gene test for EPO (detecting when synthetic EPO turns a gene on), they will keep doing it. The 100s of kenyans are trying to differentiate themselves from each other. It would be stupid not to cheat - when the prize is so large, the risk is so small, and the outcomes of cheating are just back where you started anyway.
Sir, most Kenyans including elite runners, are devout Christians and God-fearing and so would avoid cheating as a matter of course. Now the cynics will say this is a silly and irrelevant statement but if you travel to Kenya and live with these people you will perhaps recognize that it holds some validity.
I am not denying that cheating exists but simply stating that I think the general consensus here is over the top with regard to cheating Kenyans and there are many if not the majority of Kenyan elite runners who (probably) do not cheat.
By the logic of some people here, they would put into the cheating camp the famous coach brother Colm O’Donnell, who is privy to almost everything going on with his athletes as he lives in close proximity to them at the Saint Patrick’s, Iten high school. It’s like one big family. The toilets, dorms, and communal eating areas are all communal and shared. Impossible to do anything in secret. Even though Rhonex is a very rich young man now, he still chooses to live in a very simple and basic way with all his fellow apprentices at the Saint Patrick’s high school. He could retire now and live an upper middle class life in Nairobi but chooses to continue to toil to prove he is one of the best runners on planet earth. Let’s give this kid (Rhonex K.), a break until everything is uncovered, and proved beyond reasonable doubt.
These people live very simple lives and everything is seen and heard. I feel sorry for the Irish priest who is close to the final years of his life and who has to put up with this innuendo and scrutinization in his twilight years. If Rhonex is shown to be guilty in this sad affair it will reflect badly on the Irish Priest. Going a step further, his whole career might be seen in a tainted way including his relationship with former Olympic champions, like Rudisha and co. It’s unlikely that the small, rotund Irish priest suddenly decided at age 65+ to start aiding and abetting a cheating machination in Kenya.
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Ghost did you just write that it is unlikely the true small, rotund priest would engage in cheating? You are killing me here. I have no idea of course but surely his rotundity has no bearing on this. And also Ghost you seem to think that religion is a shield against questionable behavior. It may be but it is often not enough to prevent it.
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Ghost1 wrote:
Work Commute Track Club wrote:
Can we just put this up as quote of the day. It's 100 percent correct. Until there is a gene test for EPO (detecting when synthetic EPO turns a gene on), they will keep doing it. The 100s of kenyans are trying to differentiate themselves from each other. It would be stupid not to cheat - when the prize is so large, the risk is so small, and the outcomes of cheating are just back where you started anyway.
It’s unlikely that the small, rotund Irish priest suddenly decided at age 65+ to start aiding and abetting a cheating machination in Kenya.
lol
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