Btw, it is very hard to compare athletes accross eras because athletes train for and compete at the level of their era. There are athletes like Lingren, Pre, Virgin, Eric Hulst, Reuben Reina, Ritz and Mohamud Abdirizak for example who simply didn't lose and if they competed in this era, they would most likely be just as dominant. A final note, perhaps we put too much emphasis on winning Kenny/Footlocker and NXN. Athletes like Rudy Chapa, Galen Rupp, Ryan Hall, Alberto Salazar, Franklin Sanchez and German Fernandez for example. German Fernandez ran Footlocker with a foot injury and was sick 2 days before, Rupp and Hall simply had bad Footlocker races.
It is really hard to evaluate a lot of the pre footlocker guys. They dominated their region but never races XC outside of it.
For fun, you could take the footlocker results and find the top 7 finishers for every state. Could then try and do speed ratings.
Btw, it is very hard to compare athletes accross eras because athletes train for and compete at the level of their era. There are athletes like Lingren, Pre, Virgin, Eric Hulst, Reuben Reina, Ritz and Mohamud Abdirizak for example who simply didn't lose and if they competed in this era, they would most likely be just as dominant. A final note, perhaps we put too much emphasis on winning Kenny/Footlocker and NXN. Athletes like Rudy Chapa, Galen Rupp, Ryan Hall, Alberto Salazar, Franklin Sanchez and German Fernandez for example. German Fernandez ran Footlocker with a foot injury and was sick 2 days before, Rupp and Hall simply had bad Footlocker races.
It is really hard to evaluate a lot of the pre footlocker guys. They dominated their region but never races XC outside of it.
For fun, you could take the footlocker results and find the top 7 finishers for every state. Could then try and do speed ratings.
Or if you prefer just do the state meets. That gets tough as weather/course changes can make it very hard to compare years...
I do feel like team Born-in-Oregon would do pretty well in a "historical track meet" because we have Rupp (distance & marathon), Ryan Crouser (shot), Mac Wilkins (discus), Prefontaine (distance), Dick Fosbury (HJ), Ryan Bailey (sprints), and Dan O'Brien & Ashton Eaton (multis). I would feel good going to a meet with those guys as my "team" for sure.
I guess big states like California and Texas could do better, but for a small state, to have these guys as locals is pretty special.
Idaho would be pretty good... Ian Waltz, Donovan Kilmartin, Landon Helms, Gatlin Bair, Slagowski, Nathan Green. Hell, Idaho may be the best HS multi event state. Kilmartin scored 7,486 in the dec, Helms scored 7,051, Jaxon Bair scored 7,496, Peyton Bair scored 6,913.
HS Multis? Do most states have that? Oregon does not...
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
I would like to think that if people outside your state have never heard of your picks, you are not picking the right people.
I am liking Bob Kennedy over Chad DeWaat. I like Lukas V. over Brad Hanfnagel. Can we get a Alan Webb over Mike Schtain?
All the posters who tried to pump up "local hometown heroes" from your state need to go back to the drawing-board.
We are looking for a team that can beat guys like Pre, Rupp, Gorze, etc. not your nephew's ex-training partner who won State one year. A good check of ability is if anyone outside your state knows the name.
I would like to think that if people outside your state have never heard of your picks, you are not picking the right people.
I am liking Bob Kennedy over Chad DeWaat. I like Lukas V. over Brad Hanfnagel. Can we get a Alan Webb over Mike Schtain?
All the posters who tried to pump up "local hometown heroes" from your state need to go back to the drawing-board.
We are looking for a team that can beat guys like Pre, Rupp, Gorze, etc. not your nephew's ex-training partner who won State one year. A good check of ability is if anyone outside your state knows the name.
The thread is way more interesting if we field teams from 50 states rather than just argue about the winner, IMO.
Idaho would be pretty good... Ian Waltz, Donovan Kilmartin, Landon Helms, Gatlin Bair, Slagowski, Nathan Green. Hell, Idaho may be the best HS multi event state. Kilmartin scored 7,486 in the dec, Helms scored 7,051, Jaxon Bair scored 7,496, Peyton Bair scored 6,913.
HS Multis? Do most states have that? Oregon does not...
Idaho doesn’t generally have multis. Select athletes are finding invites that run them.
I think you can take the Inland Empire course and throw those times out a window. The course is insanely fast, and rated as something like 33 seconds faster than the Firman/NXN course. His most impressive result is actually winning Firman. I think that if he follows up his cross season with a similar year, he makes the Idaho list. I'm not willing to bump pre-super shoes guys with better overall resumes and better track times (for now) off the list for him. I think you would need to consider a guy like Rafla over him, who ran 4:10 and 8:50 in the 3200 to take 2nd at Arcadia if one time state champs are in consideration.
Any older Idaho 3200 star performances missing from this Milesplit list? Heemeyer’s 9:03 run last week is missing, but I’m not sure if there are any older ones that just aren’t in the database.
1 8:50.55 ANDREW RAFLA Timberline High School (Boise) 2014 2 8:52.16 ELIJAH ARMSTRONG Pocatello High School 2015 3 8:53.47 NATHAN GREEN Borah High School 2021 4 8:55.28 DALLIN FARNSWORTH Highland High School (Pocatello) 2012 5 9:02.06 PAUL RYAN Logos Christian School 2015 6 9:03.81 GRADY MYLANDER Nampa Christian High School 2022 7 9:04.13 ERIK HARRIS Twin Falls High School 2012 8 9:05.04 DANIEL SIMMONS Salmon High School 2024 9 9:10.16 ERIC FITZPATRICK Boise Senior High School 2010 10 9:12.31 LUKE ATHAY Idaho Falls High School 2024 11 9:13.74 MATT THOMAS Blackfoot High School 2023
Btw, it is very hard to compare athletes accross eras because athletes train for and compete at the level of their era. There are athletes like Lingren, Pre, Virgin, Eric Hulst, Reuben Reina, Ritz and Mohamud Abdirizak for example who simply didn't lose and if they competed in this era, they would most likely be just as dominant. A final note, perhaps we put too much emphasis on winning Kenny/Footlocker and NXN. Athletes like Rudy Chapa, Galen Rupp, Ryan Hall, Alberto Salazar, Franklin Sanchez and German Fernandez for example. German Fernandez ran Footlocker with a foot injury and was sick 2 days before, Rupp and Hall simply had bad Footlocker races.
It is really hard to evaluate a lot of the pre footlocker guys. They dominated their region but never races XC outside of it.
Some of the 70s guys faced competition outside their area when they ran world Jr XC. Although there were not teams from East Africa, CA guys dominated the rest of the US and Euro runners.
Rich Kimball won the title in 1974, defeating John Treacy (3rd) and Centro Sr (5th). In 1976 Hulst and Thom Hunt finished 1-2 with Hulst winning by 13 seconds and Salazar in 5th. Hunt won the next year by 13 seconds. CA was a very competitive HS environment in the 1970s.
It is really hard to evaluate a lot of the pre footlocker guys. They dominated their region but never races XC outside of it.
Some of the 70s guys faced competition outside their area when they ran world Jr XC. Although there were not teams from East Africa, CA guys dominated the rest of the US and Euro runners.
Rich Kimball won the title in 1974, defeating John Treacy (3rd) and Centro Sr (5th). In 1976 Hulst and Thom Hunt finished 1-2 with Hulst winning by 13 seconds and Salazar in 5th. Hunt won the next year by 13 seconds. CA was a very competitive HS environment in the 1970s.
It was probably too competitive. Most of the CA guys from that era (including Nelson) were fried by the time their HS careers were over.
I think you can take the Inland Empire course and throw those times out a window. The course is insanely fast, and rated as something like 33 seconds faster than the Firman/NXN course. His most impressive result is actually winning Firman. I think that if he follows up his cross season with a similar year, he makes the Idaho list. I'm not willing to bump pre-super shoes guys with better overall resumes and better track times (for now) off the list for him. I think you would need to consider a guy like Rafla over him, who ran 4:10 and 8:50 in the 3200 to take 2nd at Arcadia if one time state champs are in consideration.
Any older Idaho 3200 star performances missing from this Milesplit list? Heemeyer’s 9:03 run last week is missing, but I’m not sure if there are any older ones that just aren’t in the database.
1 8:50.55 ANDREW RAFLA Timberline High School (Boise) 2014 2 8:52.16 ELIJAH ARMSTRONG Pocatello High School 2015 3 8:53.47 NATHAN GREEN Borah High School 2021 4 8:55.28 DALLIN FARNSWORTH Highland High School (Pocatello) 2012 5 9:02.06 PAUL RYAN Logos Christian School 2015 6 9:03.81 GRADY MYLANDER Nampa Christian High School 2022 7 9:04.13 ERIK HARRIS Twin Falls High School 2012 8 9:05.04 DANIEL SIMMONS Salmon High School 2024 9 9:10.16 ERIC FITZPATRICK Boise Senior High School 2010 10 9:12.31 LUKE ATHAY Idaho Falls High School 2024 11 9:13.74 MATT THOMAS Blackfoot High School 2023
Taylor Farnsworth went 9:13 for the full 2 miles at Arcadia in 07. I’m not sure the Highland guys from the 80s are properly accounted for either. I don’t know what they actually ran. Chase Caulkins ran 9:08 at Pasco in 2010. I’m sure if I dig for 15 minutes I can find a ton more.
It is really hard to evaluate a lot of the pre footlocker guys. They dominated their region but never races XC outside of it.
Some of the 70s guys faced competition outside their area when they ran world Jr XC. Although there were not teams from East Africa, CA guys dominated the rest of the US and Euro runners.
Rich Kimball won the title in 1974, defeating John Treacy (3rd) and Centro Sr (5th). In 1976 Hulst and Thom Hunt finished 1-2 with Hulst winning by 13 seconds and Salazar in 5th. Hunt won the next year by 13 seconds. CA was a very competitive HS environment in the 1970s.
And of the top 20 HS runners in those years, how many showed up for those races? It is always hot and miss if a HSer shows up for juniors. We would think differently about all those guys (and virgin, pre,...) If they had a 4th at footlocker or NXN on their resume. Think about how differently you would view German Fernandez or Rupps senior XC if they would have won.
Who is the best HS XC runner this year? Sahlman who showed up and beat the competition when they all showed up or Leo Young who was the top US guy at world? Are you going to pick who is better at the 5k standard HS or the ~8k the juniors run? I would have no problem saying Leo performance is better. Doesn't change the fact on the day that mattered he didn't perform.
Its interesting at first glance, because I figured: How could any state even come close to competing with the NY girls. But the reality is that it's just two powerhouse programs in NY that consistently produce top 3 in the nation teams. (Insane statement if you really think about it, but true). When it comes to individuals (although 2 of those girls are from Saratoga) CA does make it very very interesting. Its incredibly close although I would take NY on any course that isn't mostly flat.
As a side note: While looking at this, I was looking up times and surprised to see Cain wasn't a stand out XC runner. Granted she came in second at nxn it was in 19:21 and her Bowdin times aren't even close to cuffe or tuohy. With her track times, i figured she would have won multiple xc championships.
Enjoyed this discussion. On Cain in grades 8-10 she had already found some speed at 400, 800 and mile, but was just good at xc. Still her last times at Bowdoin from only her soph year put her at #6 on the ny all time list. After moving to Nike, she skipped the ny xc series in grades 11 and 12..
Although she was best known as a miler, her limited distance performances still put her in the all time discussion. 2nd at NXN as Jr (skipped sr NXN), 15:45 track 5k still #4 all time, 8:58 3000m #1 all-time. In hindsight I would have had her on my NYxc team. 2nd NXN equals Chmiel and actually a better result than Blood and Huddle.
NY national champs: Curtin FL, Davis FL, Ryan FL, Cuffe FL, Touhy NXN, Baloga FL
NY runner ups: Cain NXN, Chmiel NXN
NY very goods: Huddle, Rhines, Blood, Lipari, Rauber
To your point, there is no one from FM on this list or from the recent 3xnat'l champ toga team. An F-M all star team would be hon mention to the above group. Walters, Neal, Fanning, Sullivan, Chapman.
I'd line up with this squad. Touhy, Cuffe, Baloga, Chmiel, Cain, Huddle, Blood
CT wouldn't win but I'm going to throw it up anyways:
Hannah DiBalsi
Meghan Owen
Cece Hopp
Liz Mueller
Jan Merrill
Gavin Coombs
Donn Cabral
Gavin Sherry
Amby Burfoot
John J Kelley
Alex Ostberg would be in Connecticut
Do states like CT even have enough FL qualifiers (or like top 20 at NXN)? I have a feeling that is going to be true for most of the bottom 25 states. My first glance is only Utah and Oregon are coming close.
At the other end who is the worst state with 10m people? Would CT beat say Georgia or NC?