More importantly, batting is only 1/2 the game, or maybe 2/3, but still, Mays was the greatest center fielder of all time. Aaron was an excellent right fielder. We are not talking about who would have been a better DH. As it is, Mays has a better offensive war. FP also is not addressing Mays two lost seasons just as he was beginning to peak as a player. Since most of the stats being offered in Aaron’s favor are just cumulative totals, these lost seasons are relevant. I usually agree with FP about baseball, but picking Aaron over Mays is a mistake. I also know he’s very stubborn and will not concede he is wrong regardless of the data presented.
What are you talking about? The data presented shows that Aaron was a better player than Mays.
Yes Mays was a better fielder. I don't think that's all that important. How many chances does one fielder get in a game? How many of those are out of reach of Aaron but within reach for Mays? Not very many all season.
Aaron:
More hits
More HRs
Better batting average
More RBIs
More doubles
...and not just totals...better per 162 games.
AND...Aaron stayed great longer. 40 HRs at age 39, and only 28 for Mays.
Hank Aaron is underestimated and is the very best player in Major League Baseball history.
Well first off, Babe was objectively the best player in MLB history relative to his peers, and by a long shot too. There really is no disputing that unless you are not being objective/engaging in hypotheticals. He put up 40 more WAR than Aaron with 3000 less plate appearances, so there's a pretty wide gap between the two.
But as to the Mays and Aaron comparison, obviously Mays was the better baserunner and defender, but he was also a slightly better offensive player, racking up 4 more oWAR over 1400 less plate appearances (where you play matters a lot) and having a 7 year peak that is much better than Aaron (60.3 v 73.5 WAR7; sabermetricians look at a 7 year peak since just racking up counting stats forever isn't really indicative of anything other than that someone is employing you).
In your selected categories, you also downplay the affect a team has (a better team will generally allow a player to get more ABs over 162 games, and Mays got an average of 589 ABs to Aaron's 607) and ignore 1/3 of XBH.
So:
-Aaron does have more doubles than Mays/162 (31 to 28)...but Mays has an equal amount of doubles and triples to Aaron (28+8 vs 31+5) again with less at bats to do so.
-Aaron does have more Homers than Mays/162 (37 to 36)...but where you play matters. It is easier to hit homers in warm Atlanta with a CF fence barely over 400 ft than in cold SF with a CF fence of 420. Enough to make up for a measly 1 homerun, especially if given the extra 18 ABs that Aaron benefited from each year
-Aaron does have more RBIs than Mays/162 (103 to 113)...but RBIs are largely a function of team success, not individual skill. This is why Josh Naylor has more RBIs than Mike Trout this year, for example. See here: https://library.fangraphs.com/stats-to-avoid-runs-batted-in-rbi/ I would be curious to see how many total runners each had the opportunity to drive in and their respective success rates
-Aaron does have a higher BA than Mays/162 (.305 v .301)... but BA is generally a worse measure than OBP. It is there that we see that Mays did a better job than Aaron at avoiding making outs for his team (OBP of .384 vs OBP of .374).
-Since Mays was a better slugger than Aaron (triples are more valuable than doubles, after all), we see Mays had a slightly higher slugging %: .557 vs .555. And that's ignoring the 6 extra SB that Mays had on Aaron each year, essentially turning 6 singles into doubles.
-Aaron was slightly more prone to strikeout (per 162: 68 vs 66) and much more prone to cost his team two outs (GIDP/162 of 16 vs 11). In that sense, Mays was better at avoiding bad outcomes.
So in conclusion, we know that Mays had a better offensive peak than Aaron and also had a superior career in terms of slugging, reaching base, and avoiding bad outcomes.
And that is just offensively, since everyone agrees Mays was the better defender and runner, which partly explains why Mays accumulated 15 more WAR than Aaron, despite playing less than him.
What are you talking about? The data presented shows that Aaron was a better player than Mays.
Yes Mays was a better fielder. I don't think that's all that important. How many chances does one fielder get in a game? How many of those are out of reach of Aaron but within reach for Mays? Not very many all season.
Aaron:
More hits
More HRs
Better batting average
More RBIs
More doubles
...and not just totals...better per 162 games.
AND...Aaron stayed great longer. 40 HRs at age 39, and only 28 for Mays.
Hank Aaron is underestimated and is the very best player in Major League Baseball history.
Well first off, Babe was objectively the best player in MLB history relative to his peers, and by a long shot too. There really is no disputing that unless you are not being objective/engaging in hypotheticals. He put up 40 more WAR than Aaron with 3000 less plate appearances, so there's a pretty wide gap between the two.
But as to the Mays and Aaron comparison, obviously Mays was the better baserunner and defender, but he was also a slightly better offensive player, racking up 4 more oWAR over 1400 less plate appearances (where you play matters a lot) and having a 7 year peak that is much better than Aaron (60.3 v 73.5 WAR7; sabermetricians look at a 7 year peak since just racking up counting stats forever isn't really indicative of anything other than that someone is employing you).
In your selected categories, you also downplay the affect a team has (a better team will generally allow a player to get more ABs over 162 games, and Mays got an average of 589 ABs to Aaron's 607) and ignore 1/3 of XBH.
So:
-Aaron does have more doubles than Mays/162 (31 to 28)...but Mays has an equal amount of doubles and triples to Aaron (28+8 vs 31+5) again with less at bats to do so.
-Aaron does have more Homers than Mays/162 (37 to 36)...but where you play matters. It is easier to hit homers in warm Atlanta with a CF fence barely over 400 ft than in cold SF with a CF fence of 420. Enough to make up for a measly 1 homerun, especially if given the extra 18 ABs that Aaron benefited from each year
-Aaron does have more RBIs than Mays/162 (103 to 113)...but RBIs are largely a function of team success, not individual skill. This is why Josh Naylor has more RBIs than Mike Trout this year, for example. See here: https://library.fangraphs.com/stats-to-avoid-runs-batted-in-rbi/ I would be curious to see how many total runners each had the opportunity to drive in and their respective success rates
-Aaron does have a higher BA than Mays/162 (.305 v .301)... but BA is generally a worse measure than OBP. It is there that we see that Mays did a better job than Aaron at avoiding making outs for his team (OBP of .384 vs OBP of .374).
-Since Mays was a better slugger than Aaron (triples are more valuable than doubles, after all), we see Mays had a slightly higher slugging %: .557 vs .555. And that's ignoring the 6 extra SB that Mays had on Aaron each year, essentially turning 6 singles into doubles.
-Aaron was slightly more prone to strikeout (per 162: 68 vs 66) and much more prone to cost his team two outs (GIDP/162 of 16 vs 11). In that sense, Mays was better at avoiding bad outcomes.
So in conclusion, we know that Mays had a better offensive peak than Aaron and also had a superior career in terms of slugging, reaching base, and avoiding bad outcomes.
And that is just offensively, since everyone agrees Mays was the better defender and runner, which partly explains why Mays accumulated 15 more WAR than Aaron, despite playing less than him.
Meh. Aaron was better. I'm WAY more interested in the Trump news today, so you get this short comment from me. Aaron was better.
Well first off, Babe was objectively the best player in MLB history relative to his peers, and by a long shot too. There really is no disputing that unless you are not being objective/engaging in hypotheticals. He put up 40 more WAR than Aaron with 3000 less plate appearances, so there's a pretty wide gap between the two.
But as to the Mays and Aaron comparison, obviously Mays was the better baserunner and defender, but he was also a slightly better offensive player, racking up 4 more oWAR over 1400 less plate appearances (where you play matters a lot) and having a 7 year peak that is much better than Aaron (60.3 v 73.5 WAR7; sabermetricians look at a 7 year peak since just racking up counting stats forever isn't really indicative of anything other than that someone is employing you).
In your selected categories, you also downplay the affect a team has (a better team will generally allow a player to get more ABs over 162 games, and Mays got an average of 589 ABs to Aaron's 607) and ignore 1/3 of XBH.
So:
-Aaron does have more doubles than Mays/162 (31 to 28)...but Mays has an equal amount of doubles and triples to Aaron (28+8 vs 31+5) again with less at bats to do so.
-Aaron does have more Homers than Mays/162 (37 to 36)...but where you play matters. It is easier to hit homers in warm Atlanta with a CF fence barely over 400 ft than in cold SF with a CF fence of 420. Enough to make up for a measly 1 homerun, especially if given the extra 18 ABs that Aaron benefited from each year
-Aaron does have more RBIs than Mays/162 (103 to 113)...but RBIs are largely a function of team success, not individual skill. This is why Josh Naylor has more RBIs than Mike Trout this year, for example. See here: https://library.fangraphs.com/stats-to-avoid-runs-batted-in-rbi/ I would be curious to see how many total runners each had the opportunity to drive in and their respective success rates
-Aaron does have a higher BA than Mays/162 (.305 v .301)... but BA is generally a worse measure than OBP. It is there that we see that Mays did a better job than Aaron at avoiding making outs for his team (OBP of .384 vs OBP of .374).
-Since Mays was a better slugger than Aaron (triples are more valuable than doubles, after all), we see Mays had a slightly higher slugging %: .557 vs .555. And that's ignoring the 6 extra SB that Mays had on Aaron each year, essentially turning 6 singles into doubles.
-Aaron was slightly more prone to strikeout (per 162: 68 vs 66) and much more prone to cost his team two outs (GIDP/162 of 16 vs 11). In that sense, Mays was better at avoiding bad outcomes.
So in conclusion, we know that Mays had a better offensive peak than Aaron and also had a superior career in terms of slugging, reaching base, and avoiding bad outcomes.
And that is just offensively, since everyone agrees Mays was the better defender and runner, which partly explains why Mays accumulated 15 more WAR than Aaron, despite playing less than him.
Meh. Aaron was better. I'm WAY more interested in the Trump news today, so you get this short comment from me. Aaron was better.
GM1: I see you've got a player that reaches base more, strikes out less, has a higher slugging percentage despite playing in a less conducive ballpark, grounds into less double plays, has a better arm, is a better defender, and a better runner than my guy. One for one?
Meh. Aaron was better. I'm WAY more interested in the Trump news today, so you get this short comment from me. Aaron was better.
GM1: I see you've got a player that reaches base more, strikes out less, has a higher slugging percentage despite playing in a less conducive ballpark, grounds into less double plays, has a better arm, is a better defender, and a better runner than my guy. One for one?
GM2: That .001 BA has me sold, where do I sign?
Do you even look at the stats? Mays struck out more. Aaron's batting average was .305 to May's .301., so you're wrong there too. Aaron was actually a very good fielder with a great arm. Mays could get to more balls, but over the course of a season, not that consequential. Aaron had more hits, more HRs, more RBIs, and not just totals, but per 162 games also.
Flagpole, you're stubbornness concerning the number of seasons Mays lost due to his military service undercuts your credibility. He missed 'closer' to two seasons, not one.
And you seem to ignore Candlestick's horrendous weather.
Flagpole, you're stubbornness concerning the number of seasons Mays lost due to his military service undercuts your credibility. He missed 'closer' to two seasons, not one.
And you seem to ignore Candlestick's horrendous weather.
Flagpole is not a very sophistcated baseball fan. Mays can lead in 100 stats but because Aaron batted .305 and Mays batted .301 Aaron is the better player.
Flagpole, you're stubbornness concerning the number of seasons Mays lost due to his military service undercuts your credibility. He missed 'closer' to two seasons, not one.
And you seem to ignore Candlestick's horrendous weather.
The number of seasons he missed doesn't take away Aaron's better stats PER 162 GAMES for hits, HRs, and RBIs.
The "horrendous weather" at Candlestick park is a HUGE overstatement, so yeah, I dismiss that as a thing. I've been to several pleasant environment games at Candlestick Park. In fact, the worst weather baseball game I've ever been to was at Oakland Coliseum.
Flagpole, you're stubbornness concerning the number of seasons Mays lost due to his military service undercuts your credibility. He missed 'closer' to two seasons, not one.
And you seem to ignore Candlestick's horrendous weather.
Flagpole is not a very sophistcated baseball fan. Mays can lead in 100 stats but because Aaron batted .305 and Mays batted .301 Aaron is the better player.
INCORRECT!
More HRs (total and per 162 games)
More RBIs (total and per 162 games)
More hits (total and per 162 games)
Aaron was ALSO a very good outfielder, so it's not like he sucked out there. He also averaged just 6 stolen bases per season fewer than Mays, so get serious with any base stealing great impact that Mays had.
Aaron was ALSO a very good outfielder, so it's not like he sucked out there. He also averaged just 6 stolen bases per season fewer than Mays, so get serious with any base stealing great impact that Mays had.
Aaron did not suck in RF, but Mays was the greatest defensive CF of all time. You understand that’s a vast difference as an all around player. You are trying to thread the needle about who is better on offense. I don’t think you’ve made the case, but even if you have, where do put Mays as an offensive player, maybe a spot or two behind Hank? Can you provide us with the differences between them per 162 games you reference above? I’m sure they are small. Ok, now how about defense? Mays is a top 5 defender in baseball history in any position. Aaron is not on the list at all. I just don’t see how you can then conclude Aaron was the better player?
Aaron was ALSO a very good outfielder, so it's not like he sucked out there. He also averaged just 6 stolen bases per season fewer than Mays, so get serious with any base stealing great impact that Mays had.
Aaron did not suck in RF, but Mays was the greatest defensive CF of all time. You understand that’s a vast difference as an all around player. You are trying to thread the needle about who is better on offense. I don’t think you’ve made the case, but even if you have, where do put Mays as an offensive player, maybe a spot or two behind Hank? Can you provide us with the differences between them per 162 games you reference above? I’m sure they are small. Ok, now how about defense? Mays is a top 5 defender in baseball history in any position. Aaron is not on the list at all. I just don’t see how you can then conclude Aaron was the better player?
Aaron did not suck in RF, but Mays was the greatest defensive CF of all time. You understand that’s a vast difference as an all around player. You are trying to thread the needle about who is better on offense. I don’t think you’ve made the case, but even if you have, where do put Mays as an offensive player, maybe a spot or two behind Hank? Can you provide us with the differences between them per 162 games you reference above? I’m sure they are small. Ok, now how about defense? Mays is a top 5 defender in baseball history in any position. Aaron is not on the list at all. I just don’t see how you can then conclude Aaron was the better player?
Yawn. You and I disagree. Have a nice day.
No shame in being wrong, Mr. Flagpole. Just accept that you are wrong, admit it here, and then move on. It is not that big of a deal.
Ok, just looked it up. The differences in offensive numbers per 162 games are trivial especially when accounting for the fact that Aaron had more plate appearances per 162 games too. Hank the HR king hit 37 HRs per 162 and Willy 36. Omg! Mays, greatest defensive CF ever, Aaron….not so much. The more I’ve looked at this the clearer it gets that Mays was much better then Aaron.
No shame in being wrong, Mr. Flagpole. Just accept that you are wrong, admit it here, and then move on. It is not that big of a deal.
There are many people who would choose Aaron over Mays, not a majority but many. This thread has 100s of posts with different combination of players to start a team with. Flagpole values offense and longevity (consistent with the thread about shortstops) others value pitching or defensive players.
Flagpole is not a very sophistcated baseball fan. Mays can lead in 100 stats but because Aaron batted .305 and Mays batted .301 Aaron is the better player.
INCORRECT!
More HRs (total and per 162 games)
More RBIs (total and per 162 games)
More hits (total and per 162 games)
Aaron was ALSO a very good outfielder, so it's not like he sucked out there. He also averaged just 6 stolen bases per season fewer than Mays, so get serious with any base stealing great impact that Mays had.
There is something beautiful about replying "no, the guy with more at bats didn't just have a higher batting average, he also had more hits!". And "get serious about 6 SBs per year" when at the same time acting like 4 hits every 1000 at bats acts as a differentiator.
Also, RBIs are not a good metric to judge individual talent, since it is heavily team dependent.
Finally, yes Aaron did average a massive 1 more homer per 162 than Mays...while playing in a ball park whose CF fence was 20ft closer and where the weather was much more conducive to ball flight.
So while playing in a worse ballpark for offense:
1) Mays had a higher OBP than Aaron (which in isolation is obviously more useful than BA)
2) Mays had a higher SLG% than Aaron
3) Mays hit into less double plays than Aaron
There is no GM in baseball who'd look at two players, one who...
-reaches base more
-is a better slugger
-is an all-time great defender at a premium position
-has better wheels and a better arm
and the other who...
-has a higher batting average
-has more homers while playing in a better ballpark
Aaron was ALSO a very good outfielder, so it's not like he sucked out there. He also averaged just 6 stolen bases per season fewer than Mays, so get serious with any base stealing great impact that Mays had.
There is something beautiful about replying "no, the guy with more at bats didn't just have a higher batting average, he also had more hits!". And "get serious about 6 SBs per year" when at the same time acting like 4 hits every 1000 at bats acts as a differentiator.
Also, RBIs are not a good metric to judge individual talent, since it is heavily team dependent.
Finally, yes Aaron did average a massive 1 more homer per 162 than Mays...while playing in a ball park whose CF fence was 20ft closer and where the weather was much more conducive to ball flight.
So while playing in a worse ballpark for offense:
1) Mays had a higher OBP than Aaron (which in isolation is obviously more useful than BA)
2) Mays had a higher SLG% than Aaron
3) Mays hit into less double plays than Aaron
There is no GM in baseball who'd look at two players, one who...
-reaches base more
-is a better slugger
-is an all-time great defender at a premium position
-has better wheels and a better arm
and the other who...
-has a higher batting average
-has more homers while playing in a better ballpark
-is a below league-average defender
and would take the second player
Hank Aaron was great, but Willie Mays was clearly the better player. Clearly.
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