Shall we enumerate the number of defeats of Coe in the 800m (even in a weakened Olympic event) with his 1:41?
He won far more than he lost. He only lost 2 races in 4 years between Sep 78 and Sep 82. Yes, 1 was in the Olympic final, but he ran a terrible tactical race and was only beaten by Ovett, another alltime great. His record in the Olympics is better than Kipketer's over 2 laps.
Coe also won golds over 800m at the European Indoors in 77, the European Cups in 79 and 81, the World Cup in 81 and the 86 European Championships.
Isn't you that have a youtube channel dedicated to Coe? So I'm expecting an unbiased view about "Lord Coe religion".
Interesting -- French athletes could inject small amounts of plasma from anemic rabbits as far back as the early 1900's to boost their red blood cell counts. That's about the time of beginning of the Tour de France.
Note, altitude training was made popular as far back as 1968, after the Olympics in Mexico City. Man living and breathing at high altitude itself has existed for far longer than that.
Deano you have to stop with the Monaco is 2 seconds faster theory. Doesn’t make sense upon any scrutiny. It’s a fast track and where most 1500m runners try to run their fastest race of the season. Tokyo is fast, Rieti is fast, it is more notable when a track nowadays is decidedly not fast like Birmingham where they cheaped out.
What is this telling me? A method for synthetic mass production was invented in 1983. That doesn't mean it would be available for athletes the following year, it takes years for drugs to go from testing to to mass production to being available for people to buy. And on top of that athletes probably didn't realise it could be abused for performance gains until years after that.
Deano you have to stop with the Monaco is 2 seconds faster theory. Doesn’t make sense upon any scrutiny. It’s a fast track and where most 1500m runners try to run their fastest race of the season. Tokyo is fast, Rieti is fast, it is more notable when a track nowadays is decidedly not fast like Birmingham where they cheaped out.
He has to stop with many other "theories" as well.
Coe also won golds over 800m at the European Cups in 79 and 81, the World Cup in 81
No, he hasn't.
What are you on about? Yes he did. At the time he won them, prior to the inaugural World Champs in 83, the bi-annual World Cup and European Cup competitions were the most important events outside of the Olympics. You only have to look at the names of the winners in the 81 World Cup to see that the very best took part and the quality of the athletes that won was greater than the 80 Olympic champions in many events.
The 1981 European Cup was the 8th edition of the European Cup of athletics. It was the last edition to feature multiple stages of competition before being replaced by the promotion/relegation system since 1983. The "A" Finals...
The 3rd IAAF World Cup in Athletics was an international track and field sporting event sponsored by the International Association of Athletics Federations, held on September 4–6, 1981, at the Stadio Olimpico in Rome, Italy....
I suppose Said Aouita is not very bright? He says Seb Coe would be NOTHING today. Really. 1:41 is NOTHING.
To be fair, I think Aouita was talking about the 1500m and making the point that himself and Coe would be 2 or 3 seconds behind the guys on EPO - which is true.
I don't understand why you go to such great lengths to weave this tapestry together to explain 4 performers in the "EPO-era".
If EPO and testing were so highly connected to high distance running performance, we should have seen many more runners *worldwide* surpassing the middle distance greats of the '80s like Coe and Ovett and Cram, over the course of a decade and a half, up to your magic milestone of 2005, and similarly for longer distances, the performances of Moorcroft, Steve Jones, Fernando Mamede, and Carlos Lopes. It should have been as obvious as the worldwide jump in performances we saw with new shoes. Instead, we only see it from local regions in East and somewhat less in North Africa, including those athletes who went to countries that can afford OOC testing, like the USA, Denmark, the UK, and Japan.
It's really best to ignore you, but briefly - your analogy with the shoes doesn't work, because every country is using the new shoes, and it's your assumption (that underlies every single statement you make) that every country was taking epo in equal quantitites.
I suppose Said Aouita is not very bright? He says Seb Coe would be NOTHING today. Really. 1:41 is NOTHING.
To be fair, I think Aouita was talking about the 1500m and making the point that himself and Coe would be 2 or 3 seconds behind the guys on EPO - which is true.
Are you sure it is true? What were Aouita and Coe using for PEDs?
Thanks you rekrunner because I was investigating about Kada (who apparently has gone two years ago to coach Tunisia). The Australian journalist (or whatever is his function) came to Morocco to do an article about Salah Hissou who according to him didn't sufficient light and was underrated by the international medias. Then in his investigations, discovered the mysterious man called Kada who is behind most medals and success of Morocco during the 90s. Then he changed the direction of his book to focus on Kada.
I had issue to translate the name of the Australian journalist because the name was wriiten in Arabic article.
Thanks you rekrunner because I was investigating about Kada (who apparently has gone two years ago to coach Tunisia). The Australian journalist (or whatever is his function) came to Morocco to do an article about Salah Hissou who according to him didn't sufficient light and was underrated by the international medias. Then in his investigations, discovered the mysterious man called Kada who is behind most medals and success of Morocco during the 90s. Then he changed the direction of his book to focus on Kada.
I had issue to translate the name of the Australian journalist because the name was wriiten in Arabic article.
I have read that book, and I have to say, the author is very suspicious of Aouita's progression.
To be fair, I think Aouita was talking about the 1500m and making the point that himself and Coe would be 2 or 3 seconds behind the guys on EPO - which is true.
Are you sure it is true? What were Aouita and Coe using for PEDs?
Well, as Aouita and Coe ran 3:29, and few guys just 10 years later were running 3:26 and 3:27...
That's Aouita's claim in that interview - that those guys were on EPO.
The one thing in Aouita's defence as to whether he doped is that his 1500m times were very close to what appeared to be the 'limit' at the time. In fact, so were his 5000m times.
I suppose Said Aouita is not very bright? He says Seb Coe would be NOTHING today. Really. 1:41 is NOTHING.
To be fair, I think Aouita was talking about the 1500m and making the point that himself and Coe would be 2 or 3 seconds behind the guys on EPO - which is true.
Aouita had issues with the Moroccan Sportive administrations who were progressively rejecting him starting 1994 (this was more evident with the start of Morceli rising). So the guys that got the big parts of the cake was A. Daouda and Kada who took distances from years after years.
While training Australia team (2002/2003) Aouita was talking everywhere about EPO and Drugs and their influences of changing the results and making champions.
This caused him issues with some Australian group because his words were misunderstood.
Here is an Australian article invoking the subject:
Description""Excelling in international distance running is not an easy caper. Who is willing to put in the hours of everyday training? Who wants to physically exhaust themselves at regular intervals? Who finds satisfaction i...
Well, as Aouita and Coe ran 3:29, and few guys just 10 years later were running 3:26 and 3:27...
That's Aouita's claim in that interview - that those guys were on EPO.
The one thing in Aouita's defence as to whether he doped is that his 1500m times were very close to what appeared to be the 'limit' at the time. In fact, so were his 5000m times.
The thing that has to be squared for the British guys is that their pacemaking in the 1500/mile was often mediocre to bad. Cram closing in 53 to run 3:46 being one example. You watch many of Coe/Crams top times and the pacemakers has them run 54/58 or leaves them to close in 53 pt etc. In the 90s and beyond, that part of the equation seems to be mostly better. Now you have the lights but before you just had better rabbits. This could explain why their 800/1000 times seem to have held up better. Of course you might counter EPO is the big factor, but then what about the 5,000 and above where times have moved more consistently in the 12:40s/50s and Bekele, Cheptegei have outrun the 90s times. Yes shoes/spikes help. I am suspicious of Morceli and El G for sure, mostly for El G’s secretive training situation/Kada/Moroccan doping at the time and for Morceli some of the health issues and superhuman performances. Aouita the Australian saga does not reflect well at all on him. It puts him in a Salazar sort of category at best and it sounds worse if we’re being honest.
Thanks you rekrunner because I was investigating about Kada (who apparently has gone two years ago to coach Tunisia). The Australian journalist (or whatever is his function) came to Morocco to do an article about Salah Hissou who according to him didn't sufficient light and was underrated by the international medias. Then in his investigations, discovered the mysterious man called Kada who is behind most medals and success of Morocco during the 90s. Then he changed the direction of his book to focus on Kada.
I had issue to translate the name of the Australian journalist because the name was wriiten in Arabic article.
It's really best to ignore you, but briefly - your analogy with the shoes doesn't work, because every country is using the new shoes, and it's your assumption (that underlies every single statement you make) that every country was taking epo in equal quantitites.
It's always interesting to hear what others think my assumptions are, because I can use the difference between my thoughts and yours to show me how you think.
It's uninteresting to draw the conclusions you want merely by carefully crafting a set of assumptions. What is missing is the data to start confirming, or correlating, or contradicting, these cherry-picked assumptions. I haven't seen any data yet that shows EPO matters, in any quantity, for producing the fastest times from the fastest world-class athletes, in distance running, especially for these middle distance events like 800m and 1500m and the mile. After all, if Willis and Ingebrigtsen are the fastest "clean" athletes, that makes them faster than all non-African dopers.
We have seen several sources showing estimates of blood doping across the global athlete population of +/- 14%, with East African blood doping estimates consistently around the global average since 2001, when blood collection started. I would assume, at the very least, if non-Africans are taking EPO, they would be taking it in quantities significant enough to create an observable difference -- after all, isn't that the goal? Apparently you agree with the conclusion that EPO hasn't ever worked for the fastest non-Africans, but you just assume it is because they are taking it in quantities too small to be effective?
