Sahlman has to be in the GOAT conversation now for HS Distance

As expected Sahlman was named Gatorade XC Runner of the Year.

Yeah. The quantity at one school isn't likely to be matched but exactly times stand up is hard to say. 334 seems absurd. But there are a legit half dozen guys(guys who ran 405 last year or a guy like conne

Eh, just seems like you are choosing arbitrary accomplishments. Some dudes did some things. Some dudes did other things. Let’s break down the things you are putting value in:

1. Ritz @ World Jrs. There was no WJXC last year for Sahlman to run nor was there any similar opportunity for Verzbicas.

2. Placing as US Nats — the US was absolute trash on the world stage in the 1990s and early 2000s. Since then we have had multiple medalists (Rupp, Centro, Manzano, Lagat, etc.) and the level of US distance running is still way elevated compared to Ritz and Webb’s day. So I would say “context matters.” Also Sahlman best a field that included pros for his 3:58. Gotta think Verzie’s 8:29 was 11th or better in the US if there was outdoors that year. Hard to say what they would have done if they had run US champs but I think they would have competed admirably.

The idea that breaking a long-standing record means anything is silly as well. Is Geb better than Bekele because he broke records that had stood longer? I do not think so.

and actually Verzbicas did smash a crazy barrier —- 8:30.

I appreciate you considering my points, but your breakdown omits some important facts and details, so allow me to fill them in:

World junior championships: This is not arbitrary. This is one of the highest levels at which a high school runner can compete. Verzbicas finished high school in 2011, so he had two opportunities to compete: at the summer 2010 world junior track championships (held in nearby Canada!) and the spring 2011 world junior cross country championships. Sahlman could have tried to compete at the summer 2021 world junior track championships. He has another chance this summer. I hope he takes it!

US Senior Nationals: As recent high school graduates in 2001, Webb and Ritz faced (and defeated) better quality competition than you think. Webb beat Bryan Berryhill (that year’s NCAA champion) and Michael Stember (2000 Olympian with a 3:35 PR at the time), among others. Ritz beat Matt Tegenkemp, Grant Robison, and Jorge Torres, among others.

There was indeed a USATF track championships in 2011, the year that Verzbicas finished high school. Claiming that Verzbicas could have placed as high in those championships as Webb and Ritz did 10 years earlier is ludicrous, considering: 1) Verzbicas was DFL by a wide margin when he ran his 8:29 at the Prefontaine Classic, and 2) he couldn’t even finish in the top 20 of the Pac-12 cross country championship that fall! He was so demoralized by his inability to contend at the NCAA level, he quit the team before the season was over!

I’ll gladly jump on the Sahlman bandwagon if he can match what Webb and Ritz did at the national senior level or what Ritz did at the international junior level.

There’s not much truth to this. When Geb broke the 5k record, the previous record had stood for 6 years, 10 months. 10k, less than 11 months. Marathon, 4 years. For Bekele, the 5k record he broke was 6 years old, and the 10k was 6 years as well.

Pretty stupid nitpicking on my part I guess, I just like accurate and compelling facts. And admittedly you could make that same argument with Bekele vs. Cheptegei and it would hold up to scrutiny.

Anyway, it’s pretty clear we’re not going to change your mind and that’s okay, because this is ultimately subjective. And that gets to the crux of the debate: the factors that determine “greatness” are not entirely quantitative or statistical. I will say, I wish you could admit that your valuation of Sahlman is based partially on what you expect he’ll do later this Spring.

He’s definitely among the greats already, I think we can all agree.

Uh Verbicas was actually a world junior champion if we are being technical

Yeah but is he top 5 or top 20? There is only so much room at the top... I would definitely wait til after the season to really have this discussion. A lot depends on how you value things like XC and 800m performance. And peak performance versus a wide range. Do you like Kessler 334 more than what Sahlman has done this year? How do either of them compare to say winning footlocker 2x, running sub 4 but not breaking 840? How to you judge a guy like Rupp or Gf for losing footlocker?

All I know is if we don't get a nationals race where we get like 6 sub 4:05 guys to line up and race in June, I will be disappointed.

The fact remains that Jim Ryun beat a multiple Olympic Champion while in high school, which shows just how good he actually was.

I think the only way to compare performance across decades is respective time there peers. Webb almost taking down a lagat in his prime is more impressive then salhman beating Robby andrews , or Kessler beating Henry Wyne (both of which still very impressive feats)

Nice post, I appreciate learning more about Ryun. While Ingebritsen was also a great teenager, Kiplimo was arguably better and likely the best teenage distance runner in history. He ran a 13:19 5k at 15. At 16 he won the U20 world cc and ran 13:13 5k at Pre. At 18, he finished second at world cc, only behind Cheptegei and he ran a 27:31 10k. At 19, he won the world half marathon in 58:49 and ran a 7:26.64 3k, beating Ingebritsen.

But this thread is about US high school runners, and I think is the most enjoyable thread I have seen on this board. Thanks all for the input!!!

Being the world record holder at both distances, it is somewhat hard to argue that anyone in history is better at those distances. However, I consider Bekele to be the greatest distance runner in history, his resume is unmatched. Geb a close second. And I actually agree that times alone don't tell the entire story. Thanks for the lively discussion.

Didn't Ritz win a WJXC bronze in HS?

He's the first on the Rushmore of HS. I would argue Ryun is second.

1)Ryun

2)Lindgren

3)Webb

4)Kessler

5)Ritz

6)LV

7)German

8)Nico

9)Sahlman

10)Ches/Hunter/Fisher all have arguments here.

I think Sahlman can move past LV this spring if he takes down the 2 mile record and probably lowers his mile PR some more. I think the top 4 is tough to crack into, so would probably need to see something special (Like low 8:20s maybe) to stack up to 3:53/3:34/3:55 in the 60s and Lindgrens senior dominance. Pretty crazy tho to consider that at the end of next year, 5 NP boys could have a strong argument for top 10 in HS history.

Also Nico kinda got screwed by Covid, I think he had a chance to run sub 8:30 and take down Rupps 5,000 record. But Im trying to not deal in what ifs here.

Virgin is above all the #10s you mentioned. Also. There's a bunch of greatest HS distance runner threads on lr with similar discussions. Just fyi everyone.

I think Colin could be top 20. Time will tell if he cracks top 10.

We're rightly excited by what Sahlman has done so far this season, between XC and track. But it's premature to compare him against the all time h.s. greats until the season is over. I just hope he's given the opportunity to measure himself in meaningful races. My guess is top 20 right now, with the possibility of moving up. However, Ryun is untouchable and so perhaps is Lindgren. Can he be top 5? Stay tuned...

WJXC is not the WCs. It was his greatest race for sure, and he is definitely in the conversation. I don’t think above Ryun or Lindgren, however. and I am not sure that one performance changes the fact that Sahlman and Verzbicas are significantly faster at every distance except 5000.

I have been convinced of Lindgren being a lock. Ryun likely deserves lock status even though I do not know his 3000+ chops except that he was undefeated in XC for two years. I personally view Verzbicas as a lock given 3:59/8:29/14:06, 3x XC champ and undefeated for two years.

Ritz, Webb, Virgin, Sahlman, German are all in that convo wit those three, though.

I'm assuming we are talking American high schoolers, in which case, Verzbicas didn't become an American citizen until after high school, and Cheserek still isn't. If we are taken a broader discussion on runners that attended American high schools, carry on. We're obviously not including Ethiopian or Kenyan high schoolers.

podiumrunner.com

Verzbicas' Citizenship A Factor In Triathlon Move

Staff

Race Results Weekly reports that former high school running standout Lukas Verzbicas may be giving up competitive running in order to take on triathlon training because of his current citizenship status.

Open link

Mary Decker was the last American distance runner on the cover. Alberto Salazar was the last male American distance runner on the cover.

No, half the reason Bekele is GOAT is his cross country results. I don't remember a single cross country time that he ran because place is what matters in cross country.