Last year Flagpole was celebrating the Padres trade for Juan Soto and calling Soto one of the best players in the league. Soto had a terrible 2022 and has 10 HRs this season. Ohtani has 20 HRs.
INCORRECT! I think exactly the opposite of that and have never believed that Soto was worth the money or the hype he has received. Never celebrated anything with regard to Soto. You're either just wrong or a liar.
You seem to be penalizing him because he hasn't played that many seasons. At one time Joe Dimaggio had only hit in 3 consecutive games. He ended up hitting in 56 consecutive games.
Ohtani has only played the equivalent of 3 full seasons. Let's pretend he plays in 21 full seasons. That would project out to 840 home runs. Shabby?
How about waiting until he does it. 2 seasons isn’t a hall of fame career. It’s not penalizing him. It’s just facts.
CORRECT! There is no doubt he's a stud as a snapshot in time, but so was Albert Belle and Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly and Will Clark, and George Foster, and, and, and.
His problem though isn't JUST that he's only had two great complete seasons so far (though a GREAT start this year), it's that he's not 23...he's about to turn 29. He has a CHANCE to have 6 more good seasons after this one before age will start to derail him. If there is any interruption of greatness in those seasons (injury, subpar seasons), it will be VERY hard for him to make the Hall of Fame. I hope he does. I hope he hits 40+ HRs a season until he's 42 years old (as long as he does it clean). It's just not likely.
INCORRECT! I think exactly the opposite of that and have never believed that Soto was worth the money or the hype he has received. Never celebrated anything with regard to Soto. You're either just wrong or a liar.
Also for Ohtani 1 x rookie of the year, 1 x MVP, 1 x MVP 2nd, 1 x cy young 4th.
He needs to do more and play longer, but quality and uniqueness of his seasons will help for Hof.
The first part of your last sentence is the only valid thing here...he needs to do more and play longer. Harmon Killebrew had 573 HRs and 1584 RBIs. Ohtani won't come within 150 HRs of that at best, and he'll probably be 300+ RBIs short of that. AND, Killbrew was on the ballot for 4 years before he was elected...kind of crazy, but that's what happened.
I have posted this before... is Noah Droddy better than Emil Zatopek? Droddy has better 5000m, 10000m, and marathon PRs.
So it depends on what you mean by better, which of course you didn't define. Better at baseball skills? Yes. Better at shaping the history and trajectory of the entire sport and the culture of baseball in America? No.
Sadly, nobody here ever defines their terms when they start claiming "GOAT" and "best" and "better."
Ohtani is unique. Doesn't make him the best player in history. He's not the best player on his own team...though to be fair, he's had a pretty good start offensively this season.
Ohtani might make the Hall of Fame. He's got a LONG way to go though, especially considering he's about to turn 29. He currently has 145 career home runs and a .269 batting average. Pitching? He has a career record of 33-16. A guy his size would likely start to fall off a cliff at age 35, so he's got 6 more good seasons in him. He might not get to 400 career HRs. Not a great stat in today's world, ESPECIALLY if he doesn't improve upon that dismal career batting average of his. Pitching it's even tougher for him. He's only had ONE good pitching season so far, though he has had a good start pitching this year.
He definitely gets some bonus points for being a starting pitcher and a starting offensive player, so if he can approach even very good stats in either of those things, he MIGHT get into the Hall of Fame. Personally, I'm not sure VERY GOOD stats in both should be enough. He's not as good a hitter as Carlos Delgado, and he won't have the career stats there that Delgado has, and Delgado isn't in the Hall of Fame. He couldn't make it stand alone as a pitcher either. He has 33 wins!
A lot of hyperbole surrounding Ohtani.
Arguably the best pitcher AND the best hitter in baseball right now, at the same time, and this MF talkin about Carlos Delgado.
5th in average, 1st in HR by a lot, 1st in RBI.
9th in wins, 9th in ERA, 2nd in strikeouts.
Wins, RBI, and, to a degree, average are outdated stats but if one hitter or one pitcher had either of those lines they are a star. He is two stars in one, by far the best player in baseball.
All flagpole can do is move the goalposts to say he needs more good seasons to be in the HOF. Yeah, no duh. That applies to every transcendent talent.
Flagpole in 2000: "sure, Tiger Woods has won 5 majors but he's too wild off the tee and he needs to do more to be an all-time great." Flagpole in 1991: "sure, Michael Jordan won a championship but he's already 28 and his season numbers were down across the board. He needs to do more to be an all-time great." Flagpole in 1982: "sure, Wayne Gretzky got 212 points but he's not very physical and needs to do more to be an all-time great." Flagpole in 1920: "sure, Babe Ruth hit 54 home runs but he struck out 80 times and needs to do more to be an all-time great."
Ohtani is unique. Doesn't make him the best player in history. He's not the best player on his own team...though to be fair, he's had a pretty good start offensively this season.
Ohtani might make the Hall of Fame. He's got a LONG way to go though, especially considering he's about to turn 29. He currently has 145 career home runs and a .269 batting average. Pitching? He has a career record of 33-16. A guy his size would likely start to fall off a cliff at age 35, so he's got 6 more good seasons in him. He might not get to 400 career HRs. Not a great stat in today's world, ESPECIALLY if he doesn't improve upon that dismal career batting average of his. Pitching it's even tougher for him. He's only had ONE good pitching season so far, though he has had a good start pitching this year.
He definitely gets some bonus points for being a starting pitcher and a starting offensive player, so if he can approach even very good stats in either of those things, he MIGHT get into the Hall of Fame. Personally, I'm not sure VERY GOOD stats in both should be enough. He's not as good a hitter as Carlos Delgado, and he won't have the career stats there that Delgado has, and Delgado isn't in the Hall of Fame. He couldn't make it stand alone as a pitcher either. He has 33 wins!
A lot of hyperbole surrounding Ohtani.
Arguably the best pitcher AND the best hitter in baseball right now, at the same time, and this MF talkin about Carlos Delgado.
5th in average, 1st in HR by a lot, 1st in RBI.
9th in wins, 9th in ERA, 2nd in strikeouts.
Wins, RBI, and, to a degree, average are outdated stats but if one hitter or one pitcher had either of those lines they are a star. He is two stars in one, by far the best player in baseball.
Outside of his stellar pitching, he leads the majors in HRs and RBIs. He is on pace for 57 home runs and about 130 RBIs. Just amazing.
I would say there are 100 players in todays MLB better than Babe Ruth
Bob Feller has the fastest recorded pitch of all time at 107 MPH. He played in about the same time as Ruth. You really think there are 100 players today who were better than he?
I would say there are 100 players in todays MLB better than Babe Ruth
Bob Feller has the fastest recorded pitch of all time at 107 MPH. He played in about the same time as Ruth. You really think there are 100 players today who were better than he?
Yes the pitching is hilariously better than it was even 40 years ago. So the batters have become exponentially better as batters and athletes.
All flagpole can do is move the goalposts to say he needs more good seasons to be in the HOF. Yeah, no duh. That applies to every transcendent talent.
Flagpole in 2000: "sure, Tiger Woods has won 5 majors but he's too wild off the tee and he needs to do more to be an all-time great." Flagpole in 1991: "sure, Michael Jordan won a championship but he's already 28 and his season numbers were down across the board. He needs to do more to be an all-time great." Flagpole in 1982: "sure, Wayne Gretzky got 212 points but he's not very physical and needs to do more to be an all-time great." Flagpole in 1920: "sure, Babe Ruth hit 54 home runs but he struck out 80 times and needs to do more to be an all-time great."
I never said anything of the sort about those players. Ohtani has a lot going against him. He got a slow start to greatness in the major leagues. If we assume he continues on his torrid pace this year, then he will have exactly three stellar offensive seasons under his belt, and he's about to turn 29. Andruw Jones had 9 stellar offensive seasons by then, was the best centerfielder in baseball, and he's not in the Hall of Fame. Ohtani's age is against him both as a batter and a pitcher. His size is against him also as larger players typically begin to fall off a cliff sooner.
Do we put someone in the Hall of Fame who ends up with 425 HRs and a .269 batting average and 138 career wins as a pitcher? Definitely unique, but does uniqueness do it? If he makes it to the Hall of Fame with those career stats, is he considered one of the best ever? I say no.
I would say there are 100 players in todays MLB better than Babe Ruth
Bob Feller has the fastest recorded pitch of all time at 107 MPH. He played in about the same time as Ruth. You really think there are 100 players today who were better than he?
Um...Feller's entire career was after Ruth was retired. The technology was not there to officially give Feller the record for fastest pitch. Nolar Ryan supposedly threw one at 108.1, but again, before there was technology good enough to count those. You should not say such things ever again.
I would say there are 100 players in todays MLB better than Babe Ruth
Bob Feller has the fastest recorded pitch of all time at 107 MPH. He played in about the same time as Ruth. You really think there are 100 players today who were better than he?
There are no major league pitchers currently playing who are worse than Bob Feller.
Also, it should go without saying, but obviously Bob Feller never threw 107mph. There are 100s of high schoolers every year who throw as hard as the top arms from the early 1900s.
Flagpole is correct. What Ohtani has done so far in his career has been undeniably awesome, but it takes a lot more than 2.5 awesome years to make the Hall of Fame. There’s no guarantee that Ohtani can continue to have the level of success he’s having now. He’s already struggled with injuries, including needing Tommy John surgery. If a player struggles with injuries in his 20’s, there’s a good chance he’ll struggle with injuries in his 30’s.
Even if Ohtani can manage to stay on the field, there’s no guarantee he’ll continue to play at a high level. Look at Christian Yelich and Cody Bellinger.
All flagpole can do is move the goalposts to say he needs more good seasons to be in the HOF. Yeah, no duh. That applies to every transcendent talent.
Flagpole in 2000: "sure, Tiger Woods has won 5 majors but he's too wild off the tee and he needs to do more to be an all-time great." Flagpole in 1991: "sure, Michael Jordan won a championship but he's already 28 and his season numbers were down across the board. He needs to do more to be an all-time great." Flagpole in 1982: "sure, Wayne Gretzky got 212 points but he's not very physical and needs to do more to be an all-time great." Flagpole in 1920: "sure, Babe Ruth hit 54 home runs but he struck out 80 times and needs to do more to be an all-time great."
I never said anything of the sort about those players. Ohtani has a lot going against him. He got a slow start to greatness in the major leagues. If we assume he continues on his torrid pace this year, then he will have exactly three stellar offensive seasons under his belt, and he's about to turn 29. Andruw Jones had 9 stellar offensive seasons by then, was the best centerfielder in baseball, and he's not in the Hall of Fame. Ohtani's age is against him both as a batter and a pitcher. His size is against him also as larger players typically begin to fall off a cliff sooner.
Do we put someone in the Hall of Fame who ends up with 425 HRs and a .269 batting average and 138 career wins as a pitcher? Definitely unique, but does uniqueness do it? If he makes it to the Hall of Fame with those career stats, is he considered one of the best ever? I say no.
Flagpole, you don’t get it. Ohtani is actually 2 players and should be compared to Andrew Jones and Greg Maddox.
Ohtani abilities are mind blowing to other ball players but here you are comparing him to Harmon Killebrew.
Better as in possesses better baseball ability? Obviously (people only get better at things over time!)
Better as in greatness? Obviously not and never will be. Babe Ruth was, by a hilariously large margin, the greatest player in the history of any major U.S. sport. A player today would have to hit something like 2000 career homers to be in contention. Completely changed the game
Provided Ohtani 1) continues this pace for the rest of the year 2) has one more year like this/last year and 3) gets his 10 yrs (no matter how good/bad they are) he will be in the hall. No 3x MVP has ever been left out that wasn't stained with the Bud Selig Steroid Scandal.