Shoes know no borders. wrote:
2008 - Americans win zero distance medals
2009 - Salazar introduces they grey zone.
2016 - Americans win medals at 800, 1600, stepple, 5000, marathon.
It's not rocket science is it?
Shalane won bronze (then upgraded to silver) in 2008.
But i agree. What's the point of following this sport if you accuse every fast person for doping? And spent countless hours and countless paragraphs rehashing the same old thing again in this forum.
American runs a time they've never been close to before: Yay for hard training during covid! What a talented generation of runners that happened to come along right now! The shoes don't do anything.
Runner of African descent runs a time they've clearly signalled they are capable of: doper! Doper! Doper! And the shoes! Man, the shoes are like rocket boosters, but they don't work for Americans.
Shoes know no borders. wrote:
Chef Gordon Ramzi wrote:
Something needs to be done here. Certain nations are just being allowed to dope with impunity. Remember the absurd Chinese records we used to mock a scant decade ago? Now women are closing their 10ks with sub-14:20 5ks. Just so obscenely fraudulent.
Bwahaha. Go back 2 months ago when multiple Americans were time trailing low 27s Letsrun be like "What a great time to be a track fan!". Now that dark skins are doing it its fraud, obscene, tragedy!
Bwahahaha. I’ve been talking about those low 27 times for the past several weeks. Guess you missed it. Everyone is suspect in today’s t&f circus.
Armstronglivs wrote:
2600 bro wrote:
If someone training the middle of a civil war in Ethiopia can get access to drugs and doping guidance to evade drug tests then I am 100% sure every American and Western European is doping too.
You guys are hilarious.
Drugs are easily obtained. Doping control is harder. Especially in the middle of a civil war, as you say.
This is peak naive boomerism here.
this olympics is going to be at the peak of the biggest boom in effective drug use combined with other tech that we have ever seen.
we will know its not just the shoes when the other sports go down.
2600 bro wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Drugs are easily obtained. Doping control is harder. Especially in the middle of a civil war, as you say.
This is peak naive boomerism here.
This is funny. You actually think the chaos of a civil war will prevent doping but that (clearly) it isn't affecting their training?
The 'civil war' as I understand it is localised to one small region. If it has any effect it would be to make if harder for WADA to test athletes. The lockdowns have probably been a bigger problem. In any case, there was little or no testing in Ethiopia before the pandemic or the 'civil war', and training camps are so remote in such a vast country that 'unannounced' random testing is almost impossible.
Nick Willis just Tweeted. Barbed comment?
Ghost1 wrote:
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
10,000m is long enough for the shoes to have a strong, strong effect. Even with that being the case, Hassan and Gidey are two all-timers. Hassan has the greatest range in history possibly, and Gidey has the smoothest, most efficient stride I have may have ever seen on the women's side of thing.
+1. Absolutely, the right words to sum up.
For the doubters, please realize that these girls are being tested right, left and center in Europe and elsewhere.
Indeed, she would have been tested right after this. Gidey has such beautiful form, like no other runner. The shoes may help a bit, and I think the lights help even more for WR setting, but she is an immensely talented runner. Sub 29 could happen in the Olympic final! How awesome would that be?!
2600 bro wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Drugs are easily obtained. Doping control is harder. Especially in the middle of a civil war, as you say.
This is peak naive boomerism here.
Talking about yourself? You don't appear to know much about doping. Drugs are easily obtained in many less developed countries (and these Ethiopians are not ducking bullets while they train, either). But doping control requires effective administrative infrastructure - and that is more usual in developed nations - by definition. It is harder to dope when money and resources go into antidoping. Then there are cultures where it isn't a priority.
Tinsulfur wrote:
Ghost1 wrote:
+1. Absolutely, the right words to sum up.
For the doubters, please realize that these girls are being tested right, left and center in Europe and elsewhere.
Indeed, she would have been tested right after this. Gidey has such beautiful form, like no other runner. The shoes may help a bit, and I think the lights help even more for WR setting, but she is an immensely talented runner. Sub 29 could happen in the Olympic final! How awesome would that be?!
That is extremely naive. Testing in competition almost never catches anyone now. "Only the dumb and the careless are caught"- former WADA head, Richard Pound. 1% of tests return a positive and yet anywhere from 30-50% of championship athletes are officially estimated to be on something. Gidey could be juiced to the gills and it wouldn't show in tests.
I think the best way to look at this as a track fan is that these high performance athletes are a hybrid between human and technology, and we should just appreciate final product and what it is capable of. Prior generations should be proud of what they accomplished given their less advanced resources, and their accomplishments are no less impressive from a human performance standpoint.
We are constantly getting the latest technology in "hardware" (shoes, tracks), and "software" (nutrition, performance enhancing drugs, injury treatment technologies), as well as intrinsic human training advances (mental and physical).
The goal posts of "human" limits are constantly moving forward with time because of these multiple factors, and we should just accept that.
Chef Gordon Ramzi wrote:
Something needs to be done here. Certain nations are just being allowed to dope with impunity. Remember the absurd Chinese records we used to mock a scant decade ago? Now women are closing their 10ks with sub-14:20 5ks. Just so obscenely fraudulent.
I mean, the record is right about where it should be IMO. The women’s WR in the 5k is 14:06 so I time of 29:10ish seems to be where it should be. Of course the fact that it’s clear both Hassan and Gidey can still smash this yet again, yeah…
I was truly impressed when Ayana took down that Chinese record. Now Gidey is just running a 14:18 (12 seconds off the WR, imagine a man running a 12:47 closing split in a 10k).
Off course I’m not quick to jump to the doping conclusion just yet (to explain the leap in times, I am very skeptical of East African dominance), the wave light technology makes sticking with the pace a bit easier mentally, and we still don’t quite know the full impact of the super shoes.
Amazingly that 3k Chinese record still remains completely untouched. At this rate though I wouldn’t be shocked if that happens soon. Komen’s legendary indoor 3k nearly feel so…
Grassrunner wrote:
I think the best way to look at this as a track fan is that these high performance athletes are a hybrid between human and technology, and we should just appreciate final product and what it is capable of. Prior generations should be proud of what they accomplished given their less advanced resources, and their accomplishments are no less impressive from a human performance standpoint.
We are constantly getting the latest technology in "hardware" (shoes, tracks), and "software" (nutrition, performance enhancing drugs, injury treatment technologies), as well as intrinsic human training advances (mental and physical).
The goal posts of "human" limits are constantly moving forward with time because of these multiple factors, and we should just accept that.
The "goal posts of 'human limits' are constantly moving forward"? They sure are. Here is a 'roided-out-of-her-brain Greek tennis player currently destroying the reigning champion in the French Open qf with the power of a man. No one says anything about her transformation from a slip-of-a-girl to Shwarzenegger - no one raises an eyebrow - and no doubt she will have passed the dope tests. Drugs are everywhere. Just like in running.
https://greekcitytimes.com/2021/06/06/maria-sakkari-records-her-best-result-at-roland-garros-beating-elise-mertens-of-belgium/amp/There's almost a minute between the fastest women's 10k ever and the 10th fastest: 29:01 - 29:53. It's like we just started running this event a couple years ago.
29 flat is a very good junior man's time.its not a woman's time.EPO HGH and those shoes make a deadly combination.
i watched her play,and thought 'jeez shes roided out of her skull'
Harold #1 wrote:
Awesome race
+1
Gidey vs the wave light was fascinating. Also that her shoes were taken after the finish. I imagine her forefoot form would get the most out of the shoes.
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
The Stache wrote:
A 14:18 would be a top-10 time for 5000m. How the hell is that possible?
The shoes are no doubt having an impact. The 5,000 all-time list has also been historically weak. See three Ethiopians at 14:15 or faster today with Gidey not even in the field, and Tsegay running it somewhat crazily.
I’m going on a limb and saying drug testing is a little light there. I don’t think the shoes make you run 14:18 last 5k but I think some of the juice might.
No doubt we currently have a combination of better shoes, wavelights and reduced testing. We'll see after 2023/2024 how large the effect of reduced testing was, just as we saw the effect of the EPO/pre-ABP era once the ABP reduced blood doping by a factor of two or so (e.g. 250 mL instead of 500 mL injections).
Evidently we needed supershoes and other technology/training/nutrition advances to see the EPO era WRs fall (men's 5000 and 10000, women's 5000, 10000, marathon), and some actually still stand (men's 1500 and 3000).
okitanottheshoes wrote:
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
The shoes are no doubt having an impact. The 5,000 all-time list has also been historically weak. See three Ethiopians at 14:15 or faster today with Gidey not even in the field, and Tsegay running it somewhat crazily.
I’m going on a limb and saying drug testing is a little light there. I don’t think the shoes make you run 14:18 last 5k but I think some of the juice might.
It’s both.