Sub 1:50 800m Training

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I have a Young athlete running 800m That has the speed in the first 400m but nothing in the tank to maintain the last 400m we do the sets of 3x broken 800 (300x2 -200)once a week, we also are running 200m and shorts sprints, what else can we do in the middle of the season to increase endurance with track meets every weekend

Can anyone please suggest a yearly training plan for a 15 year old girl (in UK) who wants to reach 2:08 next year? Is currently running 2:16

CoachFB,

I would recommend introducing tempo work, as well as longer race pace intervals. By doing 500s and 600s at or close to race pace, you train the body to accept pushing through after the 400. it creates that same race lactate that your runner starts struggling with.

Example workout:

This is a workout from Brad Hudson's Little Black Book (a book FULL of workouts for just about every occasion for every type of runner)

3x600m with 6-8 minutes recovery between reps

- First rep a little slower than race pace to make the workout doable.

- Second rep right at race pace

- Third rep either under or right at race pace

This will build strength in pushing past that 400. The third 200 is typically the slowest, so this is all about getting through that comfortably.

A good workout for preparing for these fast races that also hits this sweet spot is:

1x 500/1 min recovery/300

This is an all out 500 with short rest to trigger all of that lactate. The 300 is whatever is left, teaching and conditioning the body to run fast through all of the tightening and heavy muscles.

Needless to say it's very hard, but teaches you and the runner a lot about how their body is going to handle the last half of a race.

one of the best letsrun threads of all time

oldthreadboisss wrote:

one of the best letsrun threads of all time

Dozens of pages for a quest for sub-1:50. It shouldn't be that tough. Most 46 to 48 400m men who measure 2.125 to 2.25 pounds per inch should be able to race sub-1:50. Your question: Why do not more college 46 to 48 400m guys race sub-1:50? Answer: Most college 46 to 48 400m men have a XC exemption. Race a sub-1:50 then one's life would turn upside down.

Junior AJ Green from Minnesota ran a sub 1:50 at sections yesterday

Does anyone have specific detail of James Olivier's [U-Maine (1:50.16 PR, nearly sub 1:50)] training? Seems like he was a sprint type that added XC training in college and now is on path to 800 m greatness.

Hi All,

I am looking forward to train for the 800m and need some ideas / support. I am lost in the Lydiard / Snell / Daniels stuff...

I am a former long jumper who is looking forward to come back to T&F with 29 and to cope with a demanding job and training. Jumps / Sprints are way too demanding for my hamstrings / groins / ankles nowadays so that´s why I want to move up.

Some years ago hit (23yo) off training 4 times a week:

10m flying: 10.4 m/s, 100m@ 11.15s 200m@ 22.70 off no speed end work, running max 60m in training.

Squat: 140kg, power clean 110kg @ 80kg BW.

So I would consider me a fast twitch / guy for 800m standards. For the last years had been running 1 a week stuff like accelerations over 100m or 150s at 80-90% for the sake of practice.

After 1,5 months of jogging and 1km repeats I can hit without soreness the day after:

* 10km in 51 minutes on a trail (5:10/km - 8:20 / mile would be my half marathon pace) for recovery.

* 2 x 2,5km in 10:30 min with 4 min rest on a trail (4:10/km - 6:45 /mile pace)

* 6 x 1000m in 3:30-3:40 min with 6 min rest on a trail

Now I don´t know how to interpret these numbers. Can get some info about my LT and VO2max out of these numbers? Like interpret where should I put more focus on during my training? More interval or threshold? (using Daniels interpretation)

I also don´t really understand the concept of tempo used here. In sprinting you speak about intensive tempo (80%) and extensive tempo (60% runs) over 100-200m. Here it seems like something people is doing every second day (on recovery days?) at a fast pace, like for someone like me 4:10/km pace.

Thanks a lot

Tempo is about 85-90%max heart rate for about 15-30 ish mins straight

Long reps at about 10k to 3k pace 800 to 1600m in lenght with jogging almost the same time as you run

Shorter reps at 3k to mile pace total 2-4km

Long run 60-90min

Sprints full rec once or twice a week

This is base training, in this thread they recommend to do all this above weekly, but some only do 2workouts for a long run

Setup like this would be apropiate

M, easy run 30-60min at 60-70mhr

T, 20min tempo recover 5-10min shorter reps, hilss etc 5*45sec at mile pace or 200s total 1-1;5km

W, same as mon

T, same as mon but after an easy run some sprints like 3*60m near max full rec

F, 5-8* 800or 1000m same time jog as you run 10-5k pace last few faster

Than 3-4*150 or 200atmile pace or faster

S, 60-90min run if you are fresh last 15min at tempo pace

S, either day off or really short jog

Generally 400m pace per400+5sec is 800pace

+5is mile p

+5s is 3k pace

+5s is 5k pace

+5s is 10pac so all out 400+25sec is your 10k per 400, ex.50s 400 time than your 10k is 75s per lap, since you re week aerobicaly you may should use 6-7sec per lap

I think you should sctick to heart rate for tempos

This above is base

From5-6week from comp hit harder fast workouts maintain tempo

Either 800pace with short rest 8-10x200 min rest race pace

Or long reps long rec 3-4*4005min faster than race pace

As you see 800m training is t walk in the park either

would you say this is a world class coach type thread??

Letsrun needs to make a eBook out of this thread.

Looking forward to the day we can start the sub 1:40 training thread.

Thank you very much for your answer Pipedre!

I investigated training methods for "speed based" and "endurance based" 800m runners during the last days.

To my surprise I see that what many sprinters use as recovery runs / aerobic capacity work three times a week (extensive tempo - 100 / 200m runs at 70-75% of max speed with 50-100m walkback recoveries, HR between 120-170bpm, total session volume 2000-3000m) is actually intervall training, which is pretty much demonized on this board since being considered too intensive for the body, especially by Lydiardeans. Extensive tempo is seen by sprint coaches as a way to incrase capillarization of fast twitch tissue while keeping the load on the CNS low and low lactate levels in blood.

Which leads to the question, why do distance runners consider this too intensive and sprinters use it as recovery runs? Thanks for clarifying.

BTW for those interested in the story of 800m training, here is one interesting articles about Waldemar Gerschlers'/Herbert Reindel's intervall training and why it was misinterpreted or better said, failed on the long term:

https://www.uni-freiburg.de/universitaet/portrait/einzelgutachten/gutachten-reindell.pdf

And here a book about Rudolf Harbig by his wife, including some excerpts from his training diaries (page 107ff, 138ff training plans for a coachee). Knowing Piries' book it's surprising to see some annotations .

https://digital.slub-dresden.de/data/kitodo/HarbUnve_512534314/HarbUnve_512534314_tif/jpegs/HarbUnve_512534314.pdf

He did a lot of fartleks in the winter, gym work with barbells (1 / 2 x week), jumps. Otherwise all workouts done at pretty pedestrian speeds by today's standards. All workouts preceded by 30-50 min jogs - i.e.

December 1938:

*45 min jog (probably about 8 km)

* 1000m in 3:05 + 15 minutes walk ("gegangen") + 1000m in 3:02 + 10 minutes walk + 1000m in 3:11.

- in Pirie's book the pauses are stated as jogs -

April 1939:

*30 min jog

800m in 2:!1

15 min walk

800m in 2:02

10 min walk

600m in 88 s

It seems that he repeated workouts 3-4 times per week. From his annotations sometimes it is difficult to asses the total intensity of his workouts.

Worth to mention his PBs of

100m: 10,6

200m: 21,5

400m: 46,0

800m: 1:46,6

1000m: 2:21

1500m: 4:02

Long jump: 6,87

High Jump: 1,75

Simple you cant do intensity in high volume that many times a week and not overtraining.

Running 2k worth of 100s is a whole other story than like 10*400 ot 6*800 .

Unless you re a genetic freak and you have a naturarally high endurance you should put more than half of your energy to long reps and tempos.

Jrinaldi s very simple but very effective formula is 800time = 1500*1/3 and 400*2/3

You see if your 1500 is really suck you have no chance.

The minimum acceptable endurance is 85% of your 400m pr for two laps but only if you re a real speedster.

But you re doing something wrong unless you re not in the 90-95% range

(400* 1;1 to 1;05. Per lap for two laps)

Yes there are some 400-800 runners that trained like Harbig, but he could run easily under 4 for the 1500and 45for the quarter.

Unless you cant. Run 4flat is for 1500 now i recommend to stick to the tempo, long rep higher mileage version.

Or a version of it is to do oldscholl and simple do a bunch of moderate intervals but short.

In the 1960s i know a guy that improved from 2 to 1,49 in a year by doing 200s almost daily starting 24*200 37 n the fall 4-5 times a week than cutting the number and time and adding long reps at race speed

Tried today to do a first real "tempo" workout (20min) on the trail but my legs crashed exactly at the 3km mark (12:10)... felt until 2400m like comfortably hard and very relaxed but evidently it wasn't. Lungs felt OK even though it was raining ice here in Munich.

BTW during the last two week I was able to do comfortably:

10x300 @ 52 and 2m30s jogging pause on the trail...

6x800 @ 2:55-3:00 and 2m45s jogging pause on the trail...

thus I wonder when you recommend doing like "F, 5-8* 800or 1000m same time jog as you run 10-5k pace last few faster", that would be in my case the 800m in 3:30min . But I have the feeling that it would be a little bit too easy and not be taxing at all? What to do then? (5k PR has to be like 22min, 10k pace has to be around 4:50/km).

Thank you very much!

faivala wrote:

And here a book about Rudolf Harbig by his wife, including some excerpts from his training diaries (page 107ff, 138ff training plans for a coachee).

Wow thank you for sharing this book about Harbig! Too bad I don't understand German.

However, check the photo on page 46 of Rudolf Harbig running 1:46.6 and the type of track that he ran on!

What would that be worth on the tracks of today?

Uh honestly You re many years from sub 1:50 if even...

An old friend of mine went from 2mins down to 1.49 in a single season in the 60s basicly he did 24*200 at 37 like everyday for 2-3minths

Maybe you should try that bc i dont see point of 3min 800reps and 4min per km tempo runs..

Maybe 4-5 times a week 3*8*200 or 2*12*200 at 37 with 200 jog would be more appropiate.

Can you share more information on your friend who ran 1:49 doing 24x200@37, rest, anything else he did....

I find this very intresting

Pipedre wrote:

In the 1960s i know a guy that improved from 2 to 1,49 in a year by doing 200s almost daily starting 24*200 37 n the fall 4-5 times a week than cutting the number and time and adding long reps at race speed

How short were the intervals?