2024 California HS XC CIF

Fan Out West\' wrote:

Following is a metric to consider re: Crystal Springs which was discussed ad nauseam on the "Trey Caldwell" thread following his 14:27.1/2.95 mile hs CR performance last month, taking down Crystal's 51-year-old boys record.

The fastest time ever run on Crystal Springs' 2.95 course (in use since 1972) is 14:14 by Matt Giusto at the 1987 Turkey Trot, a few days following his 20th place @ NCAAs. Matt had finished 3rd @ NCAAs the year before so he was anxious to show to himself his NCAA result was just a bad race and not indicative of what he was capable of achieving. He was going all out, trying to break 14:00, but per a friend of his who posted on the Caldwell thread, Matt admitted the course was just too difficult for him to run any faster.

Giusto was far fitter at that time than any high school boy, then or now. His 14:14 is far above the ceiling of any high school boy racing Crystal, today or in the foreseeable future.

Thus, Eli Fitchen-Young's 14:23.5 CR from this past weekend I expect to last for years to come. And, very much doubt we'll see 14:20 broken for another generation or two.

So, if you think Ben Crane or any other hs boy today could run "14:0s" @ Crystal Springs, you are dead-to-rights wrong. If that opinion is based upon Tully speed ratings, the algorithm needs an upgrade.

However, I do understand how one may believe 14-flat is achievable today on a "short course" measuring just 2.95 miles, especially given how many hs sub-9 2-milers are out there today along with the hs 5000 record now down to 13:25.86.

The reason for this false assumption is lack of knowledge of how unique Crystal Springs is. It is more comparable to a mountain trail course than any cross country course in use today. In terms of difficulty, Crystal puts Mt. SAC to shame, not to mention Woodward Park.

Crystal is unimaginably daunting. You need to have raced it multiple times to know when to conserve and when to hit the gas, to have confidence you can go "all out" and still be in racing mode at the finish line. Which is what Mitch Kingery did back in the early 1970s and what these NorCal record-breaking boys have been doing in recent years.

Probably few who read this forum had ever heard of Crystal Springs before this fall. They sure do now.

If you are ever visiting the San Francisco Bay Area, drive on over to Belmont and give Crystal a walk through. Put it on your bucket list.

BurntBac0n wrote:

Fan Out West\' wrote:

Following is a metric to consider re: Crystal Springs which was discussed ad nauseam on the "Trey Caldwell" thread following his 14:27.1/2.95 mile hs CR performance last month, taking down Crystal's 51-year-old boys record.

The fastest time ever run on Crystal Springs' 2.95 course (in use since 1972) is 14:14 by Matt Giusto at the 1987 Turkey Trot, a few days following his 20th place @ NCAAs. Matt had finished 3rd @ NCAAs the year before so he was anxious to show to himself his NCAA result was just a bad race and not indicative of what he was capable of achieving. He was going all out, trying to break 14:00, but per a friend of his who posted on the Caldwell thread, Matt admitted the course was just too difficult for him to run any faster.

Giusto was far fitter at that time than any high school boy, then or now. His 14:14 is far above the ceiling of any high school boy racing Crystal, today or in the foreseeable future.

Thus, Eli Fitchen-Young's 14:23.5 CR from this past weekend I expect to last for years to come. And, very much doubt we'll see 14:20 broken for another generation or two.

So, if you think Ben Crane or any other hs boy today could run "14:0s" @ Crystal Springs, you are dead-to-rights wrong. If that opinion is based upon Tully speed ratings, the algorithm needs an upgrade.

However, I do understand how one may believe 14-flat is achievable today on a "short course" measuring just 2.95 miles, especially given how many hs sub-9 2-milers are out there today along with the hs 5000 record now down to 13:25.86.

The reason for this false assumption is lack of knowledge of how unique Crystal Springs is. It is more comparable to a mountain trail course than any cross country course in use today. In terms of difficulty, Crystal puts Mt. SAC to shame, not to mention Woodward Park.

Crystal is unimaginably daunting. You need to have raced it multiple times to know when to conserve and when to hit the gas, to have confidence you can go "all out" and still be in racing mode at the finish line. Which is what Mitch Kingery did back in the early 1970s and what these NorCal record-breaking boys have been doing in recent years.

Probably few who read this forum had ever heard of Crystal Springs before this fall. They sure do now.

If you are ever visiting the San Francisco Bay Area, drive on over to Belmont and give Crystal a walk through. Put it on your bucket list.

Let's get real here, crystal springs has 2 hills and has quite a long and gradual downhill in the middle. It's not that hilly.

Rea Sea. wrote:

trunnerrr wrote:

With the massive talent pool in CA, this state should have way more NXN championships. Just because a few teams have won doesn't mean we should ignore the disadvantage of running a gauntlet 3 weeks in a row before NXN.

CIF-SS especially has a huge disadvantage, running a brutal Mt. Sac course twice in a row, then they have to travel up to Clovis to run a tough Woodward course at States, then leave 5 days later for Oregon. Meanwhile, many of the teams at NXN had 1-2 weeks to rest and train and prepare for a very different type of course and conditions.

I get it. Excuses are like A-holes: everyone has one, they stink, and nobody wants to hear them. But there is a definite disadvantage, and tweaks can be made to the schedule to align it with what the rest of the country is doing.

popeye doyle wrote:

Fan Out West\' wrote:

Giusto was far fitter at that time than any high school boy, then or now. His 14:14 is far above the ceiling of any high school boy racing Crystal, today or in the foreseeable future.

Thus, Eli Fitchen-Young's 14:23.5 CR from this past weekend I expect to last for years to come. And, very much doubt we'll see 14:20 broken for another generation or two.

So, if you think Ben Crane or any other hs boy today could run "14:0s" @ Crystal Springs, you are dead-to-rights wrong.

so, the last thing I'll mention on this issue is that apparently Fitchen-Young split 4:28 and 9:24 en route to the record. That is insanely fast early, a 4:56 second mile (hardest on the course), and 5:15 pace for the last 0.95 mi. Pretre split 9:50 and closed at 4:48 pace for his 14:24.

With more reasonable early pacing I could easily see Fitchen-Young taking another 10+ seconds off the record.

Either way, what a remarkable set of performances on that course this year.

Fan Out West' wrote:

popeye doyle wrote:

I stand corrected, 9:40 is right, should have checked again. Still think EF-Y had the potential for even more.

Note that E F-Y time trialed his D4 race to a CR @ CCS while Landon Pretre & Ben Bouie were involved in a strategic competition in their D5 race -- and they broke Kingery's old CR as well.

Pretre has an 8:48/3200 pr to F-Y's 8:57 pr from this past spring.

Suggesting Eli likely would not have run faster if he was more conservative the first 2 miles. Instead, a (very weak) case can be made that Landon -- and maybe Ben -- could have run faster had they decided to turn their D5 race into a time trial w/each rabbiting for the other until the end.

Frankly, since we saw records set using opposite racing strategies, best to presume that was the best those 3 had on the day, so not worth speculating what could have been. With 6 boys breaking 15:00 -- second only to 9 set at the 1979 Kinney West Regional -- just be content you witnessed an historic day.

Eli will have his mano-a-mano battle w/Broen Holman at D4 States like Landon & Ben had at CCS -- and will have again at D5 States. If EF-Y "had the potential for even more," Nov 30th will be the time to show it.