LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

wth why is this thread so long

i say we delete it.... Down with this thread!!! whos with me!!!!

I like how you referred this as a "chatline" (really, at times it seems that way, doesn't it?) and like even more the new nickname you gave me!

I guess it all depends (here we go again...). Certainly 5k race pace has always been referred by many experts as "gentle" speed work. However, again, it all dependds on the individual and situation. I found out myself that I actually DO need to sharpen up somewhat before I even think about "speed". I can (or could, I should say) cut down 5k time trial times by 2 minutes once I start doing sharpening. So first of all, I would gladly buy the "effort" for 5k but I would NOT buy into 5k race pace simply because mine would vary a lot.

I've read it somewhere that someone once referred all these initial "speed" work as "slightly faster than your regular long run" and I think that should be about right particularly if you're not used to speed training like come high school or college kids; or if you completely devote yourself to "aerobic" running and more even so if you live in a flat area.

Bottom line, as HRE has described somewhere (could have been other thread), you're probably better off if you just disassociate yourself with any particular numbers (5k pace, 10k pace, whatever) and try to go with the effort. I also found out, in most cases with male runners, simply because of extra testastorone, even if you tell them to go at currect 5k pace (certainly with me!), you more often than not go slightly faster than that. "C'mon, we're only running 400m (or 200m or whatever), not the entire race! I should be able to blast away..." Here's the direct quote from Lydiard: "It's ALWAYS better to start out too slowly than too fast." This not only applys to aerobic running and/marathon conditioning training; but almost also always apply to other training as well.

Agree with much there, Nobinski, BUT, I would argue that saying "do your 5k pace" would prevent overspeeding at such a delicate stage, and saying "just go with a lightish effort" would have many going too fast. This is my experience with coaching people. Measured distances and measured times can prevent the dreaded and all too common toofasttoosoonsyndrome.

True, Mucus Poocus (okay, mine's not as creative...). It could work if you give them strict control over certain distance and time. As a coach, it's all about how you "control" the training or athletes without them feeliung they are being controlled, isn't it? Used to take kids to run a certain circuit; run it fast one and jog one... Then next week, we'll go somewhere else. Now they don't know how fast they are running... Another trick I did it myself is to wear extra clothes (pants) in the earlier going so that it would slow me down. Or I used to wear thick and bulky "regular" training shoes to do faster workouts and flats for slower running (that's when I converted to "minimalist"...)

I guess whatever works so you control the workout; not workout controlling you. And with that whatever you do and you succeed, we'll call it "Lydiard"! How convenient!

Yesterday, with 2 young guys, we did 200s with "free recovery". I led the first one, telling them "stay behind me". It was 45sec. YES. 45sec. It was a gentle stride for these guys. So then I said, "do another 200 ever so slightly faster." They did 44sec. So then I said "do another 200 ever so slightly faster". They did 42sec. So then I said.......

They did 14x200, ending with 27/28sec, and each one was ever so slightly faster than the previous one. ie They did exactly what I asked. (They wore track bottoms, training shoes etc.)

This is an extremely controlled situation....and an extremely beneficial exercise. Patience, pacing, control....it's all taught in this scenario. Each 200 warms you up for the next one. Each one requires thought and planning.....all the things that great racing requires.

At some point, the 200s stopped becoming "warmup" and started becoming "workout". They absolutely loved this session.

Mucus:

I actually like that workout! Japanese do a lot of what we call "build-up" which is basically exactly what you described without recovery. If you check out Seko or Inubushi's workout at Hodgie-san's website, you'll see that they do a quite a bit of it. Seko, or I should say the Nakamura school, would do time trial followed by a very brief rest followed straight by the same distance of "build-up". We don't necessarily predetermine the time but we'll start quite slowly (especially right after the time trial) and, as you warm-up, you'll know that you'll start to run fast. Nobody, including the coach, tell them to start running but you'll know that there is a point where you start to run faster. The key is to stop the workout right before you go all out--you finish workout feeling you can go even faster (up-swing). Great workout but I don't see anybody doing that in the US.

Nakamura was very big on finishing workout with up-swing. Just like Lydiard would say "knowing you could have done longer, faster..." In other words, rarely do you finish the workout completely spent (sometimes do).

When it comes down to it, it's not the matter of how you do it or what you do. You can do it 20X400, you can do it 3X1500, you can do it 400-brief recovery-200 and repeat like Ovett did, or 300-jog across the field-200 then 5 minutes recovery like Quax did or you can do it 14X200 build-up... There is a time to develop anaerobic capacity to maximum however you do it, there is a time to work on pace judgement, you can do them at the same time, or you may have no choice but combine. The Lydiard method is not running 100 miles a week; not doing some special hill training; not doing 50/50...but knowing what type of exercise would give your body (and mind) what kind of effect and when to do it so, in the scheme of over-all program, you can peak on the day that you require. What to do and how you do it is quite secondary. You can run 80 miles a week and that's Lydiard (as Kim Stevenson did), you can do it like Seko and Nakamura swears that they did Lydiard. Quax never quite did hill training as laid out by Arthur but he totally claims he did Lydiard. Sakaguchi's training is quite different when you look at the day-to-day schedule but he says they do Lydiard. So just call it Lydiard when you're successful so you'll give the system credit!

Perhaps we could summarize Lydiard in five words: aerobic development and balanced schedules.

Tinman

What is the Lydiard Method?

* Perfect combination of Aerobic and Anaerobic training and to arrange all elements of training in a balanced way so you can peak on the day that requires.

* To develop sufficient stamina to maintain necessary speed over the racing distance.

--about 40 pages ago...remember, Skuj? Yes, Tinman, balance is essential. That's pretty much what it is.

Alrighty then. That was a good thread. Next?

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.!!! :)

Hey Skuj,

After all the steady state running I have been doing, with zero speed except for a little free fartlek. I had a total down week (tropical vacation) with 4 easy, easy runs.

So day before yesterday went for a steady second run of the day, just 7km. I got challenged (for fun-fartlek) by coworker. I swear my legs felt like transplants from someone faster...I could fly. I just took off like a snap.I don't think this would hold over 10km yet, but I am just going into the anaerobic phase now - next week. I am hoping the speed will feel THAT smooth.

Hows your training going, with your plans for 23 races over the next year?

23 races? Squirrel said that. I might do 10-20, but mostly 800m-3000m.

OK, like, don't get all frightened and all.....but I have seen recent pictures!!! YOU ARE MUCH FITTER!!! Of course, you know that.

You have found something that speaks to you. The Spirit Of Arthur comes to you every night and gives you encouragement and training advice. It's wonderful to see. Sky is the limit. Who knows where you'll be at 45?

I'm doing the training that speaks to me! :) You've seen it at PacAth. I really am excited about Bazan. Sub 16:40 would be really good for me, but, I don't want to freak about that. Will you do that one?

I am sure you will run well at Bazan. I will see you there. I am going to (likely) go out in 9:00 and return hopefully in 8:55 for a 20 second +/- pb.

Yup it speaks to me. I'm haunted. But it's a good haunt.

Skuj,

If by chance, your current training methodology backfired or didn't work, would you convert to Lydiardism? That would require one clusterf*** of a paradigm shift.

Like if you were to run a marathon. Would you attempt it on less than 60 miles per week?

bump

If someone offered me a million bucks to run Victoria in 2:40, I'm quite certain I'd do 50-60MPW, because I know my limitations. I'd probably run like this:

S-long

M-0

T-short

W-short

T-short

F-short

S-0

The long would be 2hrs or more ish. Begin jogging, move to run, get to goal pacey pace.

I actually did a lot of weeks in 98-99 like this, once with a 24 miler in 2:38 feeling amazing. I was ready. I coulda been a contender. I coulda been somebody. But I made the mistake of "giviner" on the shorts, rather than recovery running when I felt tired.

Dr. E wrote:

I am sure you will run well at Bazan. I will see you there. I am going to (likely) go out in 9:00 and return hopefully in 8:55 for a 20 second +/- pb.

Yup it speaks to me. I'm haunted. But it's a good haunt.

Skuj,

If by chance, your current training methodology backfired or didn't work, would you convert to Lydiardism? That would require one clusterf*** of a paradigm shift.

E, is Bazan turnaround at exactly 2500m???

No Bazan turnaround is after...thanks you just reminded me of last year. I remember hitting the turnaround and being all confused with the time....I'll have to gmap pedometer it....oh and figure out where the turn around is by asking someone.

Your answer is interesting. You know your limitations. So does that mean you have tried a marathon conditioning phase, in the past? One that lasted several months? My thought is, if you know you can run a 2:40 off of 60 miles. Why would you not do the marathon conditioning for several months to make yourself strong and prepared for the subsequent hill phase followed by the speed phase?

What are you doing in all those short days?

:) Hey man!

I don't want to bore you with my life story....

For every single year between 1974 and 1995, I got a PR at some track distance. I kept improving. Maybe I was 20MPW at 15, 35MPW at 20, 50MPW at 25 etc etc...

As long as I was improving at distances that mattered to me, I wasn't looking for Lydiard training, 100MPW, etc. I was addicted to Coe / martin, and I was happy with the results. It felt right.

Would I have run much faster times with very different methods? I honestly, deep down believe that I just about reached my potential at 800m to 10000m. This does not mean that I thumb my nose to Lydiard. I am quite sure that a lot of what I did in training would make Arthur proud.

If I was training for Marathon now, those short days would be "any desired combination of running that totals 8km to 15km".

Skujomatic,

Well I have the luxury of starting running late, mid 30s. I started before that, but I wouldn't count 30-35 it was radically pathetic and spazmodic. Therefore I can plan improvememnt, age graded improvements or use valid age excuses...either way I win.

Anyway, I wonder if we take 'Lydiard' out of your personal lexicon and work from there. Now I am still a theorists, until something actually happens, as this is my forst go-around with this type of running. I just wonder, if you, take the Snell thing where he ran slow 400's but could hold them for two laps, was it because his aerobic threshold was SO high? Or was it because he intervalled himself to death????

Apparently his times are worth substantially better results given that he ran them on grass and cinder tracks....