I don't have to "name another country" to point out the paucity of Olympic champions and world record holders from Kenya in the couple of decades before 1980.
Once you intellectually mature past the age of 5 or 6, you should have discovered that you have to do more than just say "nuh uh" to be persuasive in any discussion with intellectuals.
If you want to dispute that Kenya was not the best country, you most certainly do have to "name another country".
It is an obvious question -- if Kenya was not the best, which country was better during 1964-1979?
You aren't an intellectual. You are a propagandist. There is consequently no persuading you of anything you don't wish to believe. You and slowwer are blood relatives in that respect.
I am not debating which was the "best" country in the two decades before 1980 (or the arbitrary and yet irrelevant period of 1964-79 determined by the intellectual plodder who calls himself slowwer); I am disputing your and slowwer's definition of Kenyan "success" in that period. It was "success" built largely on the achievements of one runner - Keino. He was the only Kenyan athlete comparable to runners from other nations who were either Olympic champions or world record holders.
(As for crosscountry in the 80's - no one gives a sh*t. It might as well be darts or curling.)
You come on here posting, arguing, insulting, like some kind of expert but your ignorance is often exposed.
No one gives a sh*t about cross country in the 80s? That must be why the medal winners included Rod Dickson, Nick Rose, Tim Hutchings, Carlos Lopes, Fernando Mamede, Craig Virgin, Alberto Salazar and Steve Jones.
So you make assumptions based on what I choose not to argue. If I therefore choose not to describe the elephant in the room, by your reasoning it can't be there. Of course you would think like that.
I don't bother to argue whether doping has aided performances in the 60% who are not Kenyans because it is a given that wherever doping occurs it has had the effect of enhancing performance. Except to a doping denier like yourself.
However if you maintain the view - as you do - that there is no proof doping aids performance then you won't be bothered by the stream of doping busts in Kenya, as by your reasoning their chronic doping had no effect on their performances. To you they haven't really cheated.
But no one in international athletics thinks as you do; neither the athletes nor the antidoping officials. Your madness is yours alone.
Don't pretend you had a choice. No one before you has made the connection despite several decades of data and observations, with the exception of women in track and field events requiring muscular strength, as demonstrated by East Germany, Russia, and China.
If the remaining 60% of dopers are not achieving in "Kenyan-esque" performances, why should I assume that the 40% was signficant for Kenyans. Note also that Coe can only speak for World Athletics, and does not speak for all WADA signatories.
It's amusing you say performance enhancing effect is "given" and then talk about "proof" of such effects (while choosing to never provide any "proofs" when asked). In the realm of logic, you start with a set of "givens" (unproven premises) which, when combined with a set of rules, permit a set of "proofs".
You only confirm my repeated assertions that you can only conclude such a performance connection when you assume it in the first place. Such an effect cannot be both "given" and "proven". We can equally, arbitrarily say "not given", and then such an effect remains "unproven".
I am bothered by the doping busts for two reasons, because it is both unnecessary, as you have rightly observed, and it brings out ignorant (as in lacking knowledge) posters who make illogical inferences by overinterpreting what little data is publicly available, both of which unnecessarily hurt the sport.
You pretend to be in the same camp of all international athletes -- who never say what you say -- and appeal to anti-doping officials -- who have no special or specific knowledge of elite performance.
My "madness" is largely a re-iteration of statements broadly expressed in the many peer-reviewed journals -- some of which are meta-studies saying that such scientific "proof" is sorely wanting, and some of studies with such alleged "proofs" explicitly including limitations and recommending against projecting any conclusions onto elite athletes and their performances.
So again -- if you are unable to show the performance connection in the remaining 60%, I cannot accept that there is a connection of the 40% referred to by Coe, and I do not assume that it is "given".
It is as long-winded as usual but it comes straight out of a doping-denier manifesto. It is no more worth debating than contending with someone who similarly believes the earth is flat. You are the doping equivalent.
(As for crosscountry in the 80's - no one gives a sh*t. It might as well be darts or curling.)
You come on here posting, arguing, insulting, like some kind of expert but your ignorance is often exposed.
No one gives a sh*t about cross country in the 80s? That must be why the medal winners included Rod Dickson, Nick Rose, Tim Hutchings, Carlos Lopes, Fernando Mamede, Craig Virgin, Alberto Salazar and Steve Jones.
There aren't any experts here; only those with opinions. Like you.
You come on here posting, arguing, insulting, like some kind of expert but your ignorance is often exposed.
No one gives a sh*t about cross country in the 80s? That must be why the medal winners included Rod Dickson, Nick Rose, Tim Hutchings, Carlos Lopes, Fernando Mamede, Craig Virgin, Alberto Salazar and Steve Jones.
+1
World Cross Country was a big deal in Europe and the USA in the 1980s. In 1981 the USA had quite a strong team (with their top-5 placing in the top-20), and still they took second to Ethiopia, with Kenya in third, ahead of the rest of the world. The Ethiopian Mohammed Kedir was rubbing elbows at the finish with the legends Craig Virgin and Fernando Mamede, and Ethopian Girma Berhanu on the heels of legend Rob De Castella, about 10 seconds ahead of legend Rod Dixon.
Since then, the only time East Africans didn't win was during wars affecting their country.
This was the beginning of East African world domination that has continued now for four decades. It boggles my mind that anyone could believe the poor countries in East Africa could dope on such a scale to produce the depth of talented performances in the 1980s, while the rest of the civilized world has not yet figured out how to harness the raw power, without detection, of the same amazing endurance enhancing drugs.
Outside the closeted world of distance runners, crosscountry didn't matter a damn. No one outside the sport knows or cares who won anything in cross-country in the '80's. It was the Olympics and T and F World Championships that mattered.
This is what Kenyan running is about - and likely has always been so.
From Running Magazine:
Over the course of one year, 40 per cent of all the [positive drug tests] recorded in global athletics are in Kenya,” World Athletics (WA) president Seb Coe said following a 2022 WA council meeting. Coe added that WA has been eyeing the ever-growing doping issues in Kenya for some time, and he and his team seriously considered issuing an outright ban of all Kenyan athletes until the problem was sorted.
The elephant in the room continues to be ignored by the doping deniers and Kenyan cheat apologists here.
The USA was the most successful distance running Olympic nation from 1964 to 1976. Four gold medals from four different athletes, as well as a silver in the 76 marathon which most people agree should have been gold (I know a GDR doping apologist like you wont).
The 1968 Olympics shouldn't really count as Kenya had a massive advantage at the only Olympic Games ever held at altitude.
1964 and 1972 gives a far better reflection on distance running strength in that period, with no boycotts and at sea level.
1964 800m : New Zealand - Canada - Kenya ;1972 : USA - Soviet Union - Kenya
1964 1500m : New Zealand - Czechoslovakia - New Zealand ; Finland - Kenya - NZ
1964 5000m : USA - Germany - USA ; 1972 : Finland - Tunisia - GB
1964 10000m : USA - Tunisia - USA : 1972 : Finland - Belgium - Ethiopia
1964 Marathon : Ethiopia - GB - Japan 1972 USA - Belgium - Ethiopia
Let's give 5 pts gold, 2 pts silver ; 1 pt bronze
USA = 21
Finland = 15
NZ = 12
Ethiopia = 7
Kenya = 4
As I've stated several times now, Kenya (and Ethiopia) had a huge advantage with their professionalism, allowing their athletes to both train and compete full time, and into their 30's, when guys like Snell were doing office jobs and retiring in their mid-twenties. Then there is also a valid question over to what extent Kenya (and Ethiopia) were already doping back then.
You aren't an intellectual. You are a propagandist. There is consequently no persuading you of anything you don't wish to believe. You and slowwer are blood relatives in that respect.
I am not debating which was the "best" country in the two decades before 1980 (or the arbitrary and yet irrelevant period of 1964-79 determined by the intellectual plodder who calls himself slowwer); I am disputing your and slowwer's definition of Kenyan "success" in that period. It was "success" built largely on the achievements of one runner - Keino. He was the only Kenyan athlete comparable to runners from other nations who were either Olympic champions or world record holders.
We are in agreement -- you are not debating.
I actually did not provide any definition of "success", but I continue to find it amusing you are unable to nominate any country you think was more successful, by any definition. If there are no alternative candidates to choose from, it can only be Kenya.
But whichever country was the most successful between 1964-1979, the real East African World domination became evident to most observers in the 1980s, with World Cross country permitting both Ethiopia and Kenya to display their depth of top talent for both senior and junior men, and this domination has pretty much continued for four decades.
The USA was the most successful distance running Olympic nation from 1964 to 1976. Four gold medals from four different athletes, as well as a silver in the 76 marathon which most people agree should have been gold (I know a GDR doping apologist like you wont).
The 1968 Olympics shouldn't really count as Kenya had a massive advantage at the only Olympic Games ever held at altitude.
1964 and 1972 gives a far better reflection on distance running strength in that period, with no boycotts and at sea level.
...
USA = 21
Finland = 15
NZ = 12
Ethiopia = 7
Kenya = 4
As I've stated several times now, Kenya (and Ethiopia) had a huge advantage with their professionalism, allowing their athletes to both train and compete full time, and into their 30's, when guys like Snell were doing office jobs and retiring in their mid-twenties. Then there is also a valid question over to what extent Kenya (and Ethiopia) were already doping back then.
Maybe for these two events in '64 and '72, but Olympic medals alone are a terrible metric in general, and especially for the initial period specified, considering the '76 boycott. It doesn't show the depth of talent within a country. Kudos for at least counting silver and bronze medals, but the Olympic games only come once every 4 years, and now you want to get rid of 1968. How about a scorecard that credits success in non-Olympic years too, and non-Olympic events?
Asking if East Africans were doping in the 60s, 70s, and 80s might be a valid question, if you genuinely explored their ability to do so (with respect to infrastructure and finance required to dope, and to hide it) and extended that exploration even-handedly to the rest of the world in order to make an apples to apples comparison. We already know that during these decades, East Germany, Russia, Europe, USA, China, etc., were already famously doping in the '70s and '80s with steroids and blood transfusions.
World Cross Country was a big deal in Europe and the USA in the 1980s. In 1981 the USA had quite a strong team (with their top-5 placing in the top-20), and still they took second to Ethiopia, with Kenya in third, ahead of the rest of the world. The Ethiopian Mohammed Kedir was rubbing elbows at the finish with the legends Craig Virgin and Fernando Mamede, and Ethopian Girma Berhanu on the heels of legend Rob De Castella, about 10 seconds ahead of legend Rod Dixon.
Since then, the only time East Africans didn't win was during wars affecting their country.
This was the beginning of East African world domination that has continued now for four decades. It boggles my mind that anyone could believe the poor countries in East Africa could dope on such a scale to produce the depth of talented performances in the 1980s, while the rest of the civilized world has not yet figured out how to harness the raw power, without detection, of the same amazing endurance enhancing drugs.
Outside the closeted world of distance runners, crosscountry didn't matter a damn. No one outside the sport knows or cares who won anything in cross-country in the '80's. It was the Olympics and T and F World Championships that mattered.
Come back to the first goalpost. We are not talking about the interest of people outside the sport. We are talking about what period East African countries started dominating distance events -- beating athletes established within the closeted world of distance runners, who cared very much about Cross Country.
Given the 1) Olympic boycotts of '76, '80, and '84, and 2) the fact that World Championships started only in 1983, and 3) World Cross Country was scheduled in non-Olympic and non-Championship years, I would say that the importance of Olympics and World Championships waned and fluctuated in the '80s, and in any case, didn't impeded on the importance of World Cross Country.
In 1981, 39 countries cared enough to send teams to Madrid, a big increase from the 28 in 1980. Towards the end of the 1980s, the number had grown to 57 in 1986, and 59 in 1990. I'd say interest within the closet was growing significant, more than doubling during the 1980s.
In 1987, (before EPO according to Coevett), Kenya won 3 Gold Medals at the Track and Field World Championship, in the 800m, 10,000m, and marathon.
It is as long-winded as usual but it comes straight out of a doping-denier manifesto. It is no more worth debating than contending with someone who similarly believes the earth is flat. You are the doping equivalent.
Predictable coming from someone who assumes the conclusion in order to conclude the assumption, bypassing the intellectual need to show the connection he wishes to believe exists.
Outside the closeted world of distance runners, crosscountry didn't matter a damn. No one outside the sport knows or cares who won anything in cross-country in the '80's. It was the Olympics and T and F World Championships that mattered.
Come back to the first goalpost. We are not talking about the interest of people outside the sport. We are talking about what period East African countries started dominating distance events -- beating athletes established within the closeted world of distance runners, who cared very much about Cross Country.
Given the 1) Olympic boycotts of '76, '80, and '84, and 2) the fact that World Championships started only in 1983, and 3) World Cross Country was scheduled in non-Olympic and non-Championship years, I would say that the importance of Olympics and World Championships waned and fluctuated in the '80s, and in any case, didn't impeded on the importance of World Cross Country.
In 1981, 39 countries cared enough to send teams to Madrid, a big increase from the 28 in 1980. Towards the end of the 1980s, the number had grown to 57 in 1986, and 59 in 1990. I'd say interest within the closet was growing significant, more than doubling during the 1980s.
In 1987, (before EPO according to Coevett), Kenya won 3 Gold Medals at the Track and Field World Championship, in the 800m, 10,000m, and marathon.
HGH is a wonderful drug. Wont knock 10 minutes off your marathon time like EPO, but maybe 2 or 3, especially stacked with roids.
HGH is a wonderful drug. Wont knock 10 minutes off your marathon time like EPO, but maybe 2 or 3, especially stacked with roids.
If this were remotely true, then more non-Africans would be running around 10 minutes faster than Derek Clayton ran 50 years ago. Someone just told me that 60% of positive tests this year are not from Kenya.
How many times do you have to be told how dirty the Kenyan xcountry teams of the 80's likely were?
It doesn't matter because you are making this up.
Contrary to your repeated assertion, it doesn't seem very likely at all that Kenyans and Ethiopians were doping in the 1980s. This would require things like money and electricity, on a scale that would have to be orders of magnitude greater than what we already know Russia, and East Germany, and the USA, and Europe were already doing. And it didn't seem to work for these non-African countries, except for women in shorter distance events and field events requiring muscular strength.
Repeating it again does nothing to address these concerns or support your fabrications.
The USA was the most successful distance running Olympic nation from 1964 to 1976. Four gold medals from four different athletes, as well as a silver in the 76 marathon which most people agree should have been gold (I know a GDR doping apologist like you wont).
How many times do you have to be told how dirty the Kenyan xcountry teams of the 80's likely were?
It doesn't matter because you are making this up.
Contrary to your repeated assertion, it doesn't seem very likely at all that Kenyans and Ethiopians were doping in the 1980s. This would require things like money and electricity, on a scale that would have to be orders of magnitude greater than what we already know Russia, and East Germany, and the USA, and Europe were already doing. And it didn't seem to work for these non-African countries, except for women in shorter distance events and field events requiring muscular strength.
Repeating it again does nothing to address these concerns or support your fabrications.
Right, so money and electricity didn't exist in Kenya and Ethiopia in the 1980s. Another Rekrunner classic and you'll be denying you said it forever more, just as Slowwer denies his shocking cheetah analogy.
Btw, most of the Kenyan gold winners of 87 and 88 were based in the USA, where HGH was rife had helped slashed times particularly in the sprints and middle-distance. Even Cruz was American based, though I hope he was clean.
Beyond all the arguing and vitriol; 40% of all doping cases come from one country. Kenya. Would that explain their success do you think?
I thought I already explained in response to you (in another thread) that, given the significantly larger pool of top talented athletes, even at an average doping prevalence rate, we should also predict more Kenyans will test positive. We need more data to show whether doping caused the success, or the high quantity of performance success causes a higher quantity of doping positives.
And I thought it was obvious that Coe can only speak for WA/AIU, which is disproportionately focusing a lot of their antidoping resources on Kenya. He is not accounting for doping positive tests from all of the other WADA signatories. We will have to wait 2 years for WADA to compile its ADRV report to see what 40% will become.
But one of the main reasons we know that doping is not an important reason for success is that non-Africans have been doping all along too. All these things Armstronglivs tells me -- like human nature, desire to do what it takes to succeed, etc., exists and existed worldwide. Coevett says HGH and EPO are wonderful drugs, and for a long time there was no risk taking these as both were undetectable, and are still easy to beat. We know that Russia has been doping both their men and women since the 1970s, with virtually everything that existed. But world dominating distance running success has been limited to small regions of inhabitants born and raised in an altitude sweet spot of 2000-3000m.
Beyond all the arguing and vitriol; 40% of all doping cases come from one country. Kenya. Would that explain their success do you think?
Rekrunner will just retort with his wall of text saying something about Kenyan 1980s cross-country teams and claiming doping was only invented in 1995 and doesn't work anyway. Slowwer will tell you that Keino winning at altitude proves Kenyans have genetically more in common with cheetahs than they do with you and me. Same copy and paste 'arguments' posted ad nauseum.