Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

No, this can't really be the case, especially if they are running a 1500/mile faster still. You aren't necessarily losing anything you are just working or running a race in a different way. You are basically no longer running at speeds or efforts where lactate accumulates as quick, so you aren't working as hard, even at the end of a race. This is basically what getting fitter is.

It's more the athlete has gained superior aerobic efficiency, so can sustain higher speeds at a lower metabolic cost. It's essentially what sirpoc says in the book and what is important, you are just shifting everything right.

The guys are getting faster, just keep doing what you are doing. This is where people panic and think they then need to do some speedwork, but absolutely they do not if they are still improving.

The proof is the guy would beat the ghost of himself it seems at any distance. Elites I've even heard say that they know they are in fantastic shape when the Max HR they see at the end of the race is actually lower, relying more on the aerobic system for longer and longer periods which is the most efficient way to run from the mile upwards.

As far as the long run and easy run goes, NSM is pretty clear. They are absolutely the same thing. It's 3x subthreshold and 4x easy and you have permission to make one of those appropriately longer, should you choose to do something.

Bakken kind of says two different things in both language of books, which is a little annoying, but broadly I get the impression he would agree with this. Bakken 🤝 sirpoc will die together really with capping all easy at 70% of max. NSM book I think gives a good idea of what you should do with your long run, the misnomer here really being it's called a long run, but unless you are marathon training or already up at around 8+ hours a week, it's not really "long".

I'm skeptical. But willing to be convinced should the evidence appear. As an older runner myself, speed kills my calves as well and definitely as I have gotten older is my vulnerable point.

What you describe is that well-trained athletes can run faster without relying that much on the anaerobic capacity. That doesn't contradict that some anaerobic capacity will be lost if it isn't trained.

The question is, is it worth chasing the diminishing gains of the anaerobic engine for well-trained hobby joggers?

Ya, I've heard the research doesn't really support compression socks & they could actually cause achilles issues rather than prevent.

Keep in mind though that Bakken was a 5k runner mostly and, if I remember correctly, never bothered to run for more than 60 minutes himself.

His book is a bit all over the place in general -- in another chapter he writes, that the x-factor could also be long run with threshold work if you're training for a half, for example.

worn them pretty religiously since 2016

cant even begin to imagine how they would ‘cause’ an achilles injury

for me, especially with the new shoe tech, it’s one of the things that i think allows you to utilize them with minimal downside

the other option is to go the route of the Norwegian Tri guys and start doing all your sub T in spikes to counteract the effects and harden your lower legs

thats something i’ve considered but it’s much more annoying since you need a track or a trail/gravel that is suitable for spikes

Bakken did write in his book that he considered running marathons after exiting his pro career. Given Bakken’s history of testing and experimenting I’m very confident that he has run longer than 60 minutes more than once.

As you claim to have read his book there’s also an outline of his marathon plan he made years ago. Missed that?

I’m not sure what your beef is with Bakken.

thought he was asked in an interview directly: ‘how important do you think the long run is?’ ‘not important’

almgren doesn’t seem to think its super important either unless hes training for HM

if you watched the Ingeb series on one of their long runs they took a break halfway thru and fueled

seems like its just a day to save time and not double

bakken says the two easy days get the muscle tone down from the Saturday session

either way it seems like the least important structural element in the system and first thing to get sacked in their comp phase

You have an example of his 180 km schedule from 2005 on page 114, which is compared to the structure of JI. There's a long run of 16-18 km there, which mean he would have to run it in 3:45 min/km or faster to run it in 60 minutes. And I also doubt that the 4x10 min threshold session would take less than an hour with WU and CD.

The X-factor session is nothing than one flexible session during the week, which can be adjusted to anything that the runner needs. Or to just be a normal threshold session.

People see "X-factor" and, for some reason, automatically think it must be speed specific.

My understanding is that "X-factor" is simply a "race specific" session. If you're training for a marathon then 4 x 15 mins would be "X- factor"

just got around to watching this

the question was about compression socks specifically and foot mobility

i tend to agree for the socks — not a fan of them for running and only ever really liked them for recovery with limited movement

and i can see if you are really messing with your foot angle/mobility that could potentially create issues

sleeves are the comprise here and have always been what ive used: they don’t restrict the movement of the foot and you can use whatever sock youd like from a volume/compression standpoint to better work with you shoe snd foot

i use different socks for different shoes and i hate compression on my foot/pressure on the top of my foot whatsoever

i have a slightly unconventional week with a running club (easy) run on a tuesday, so i'd previously been doing:

Monday 3×10min @30K
Tuesday 40min easy run
Wednesday 5×6min @Half Marathon
Thursday 40min easy run
Friday 40min easy run
Saturday 8×3min @15K
Sunday 70min long run

however, on reading some of bakken's comments about muscle tone, it seems like the 8x3 session (bolded) is the most intense of the 3 SubT workouts, and should be followed by 2 easy days. i note that in the sample plans in copeland book, the 8x3 session is normally on a saturday, followed by sunday long and a monday easy, but i don't recall it explicitly being explained.

in any case, it's monday and my legs feel a little heavy :D thinking to do this going forward:

Monday 3×10min @30K
Tuesday 40min easy run
Wednesday 8×3min @15K
Thursday 40min easy run
Friday 40min easy run
Saturday 5×6min @Half Marathon
Sunday 70min long run

does that make sense?

What is the load for the 8x3mins (24mins) and 5x6mins (30mins total) compare?

I do Wed 10x3mins, Thurs 60mins E, Fri Rest, Sat 3x10mins and feel fine and fresh on the Sat morning.

Hi All,

I'm new to this method (but not training).

Just done my first week and the first run of my second week and my form has crept to -10 on intervals. What should I do to bring it back down? Taking 5-10 mins off my next easy run was my first thought.

I've read the book and had a check through reddit and this this thread, but couldn't find what I was looking for.

7 Days a week - 6hr 15 mins currently.

Cheers.

it's a pretty small sample size as i'm only a month in (and still dialing in the paces so the intensity is likely too hard in general) but according to intervals.icu, the 8x3 session actually has (slightly) the lowest recorded training load of the three.

but i'm conscious that "muscle tone" is a bit more nebulous, and from what i can parse from bakken, shorter intervals impact muscle tone more:

mariusbakken.com

Double Threshold Training in Depth - Why it Works & How to Use it

Understand the double threshold concept and its origins in the Norwegian Method. Discover its benefits for runners at all levels.

Open link

and elsewhere he recommends back-to-back easy days to allow muscle tone to recover:

feelthebyrn.substack.com

The Norwegian Method Applied

Gordo Byrn

What's going to trip you up if you go Norwegian

Open link

If you make sure to stay below LT2 on the (single) threshold days and also make sure that the easy runs are really really easy, you should have a balanced tone from Vanilla NSM. Perhaps the main question regarding your schedule: is your club run really really easy?

as i say, i'm not really doing "vanilla NSM" as all the plans in The Book have 1 (easy) long and 1 easy after the shortest interval session, which (either by luck or design) pairs with what bakken seems to be saying about muscle tone impact and recovery.

my previous plan was 2 easy sessions after the middle interval session.

as for my club run - that's definitely easy enough (a few times i have been running on my own!) but my question isn't really about my personal case, but the optimal place to put the 2 easy sessions.

IMO, you're overthinking it. From page 119 in Sirpoc's book: "You might choose to mix up the days I have suggested, or the order of the workouts."