How important is the long run for 5k/10k racing? In an effort to reduce load on my haglund's deformity (very prone to insertional achilles pain), I am considering just doing a long XT session instead of a long run. So I would get 3 sub T sessions, 3 easy run days (usually two runs adding up to 80min), and 1 long XT session of 90min.
Anyone try this? What potential pitfalls am I missing? The longest race I plan on doing in the near future is 7 miles. Most of my sub T sessions get to around 10 miles anyway.
Not important. It's not even universally practiced among elite 5k and 10k runners. Benefits are aerobic strength and being able to handle glycogen depletion and running for that long. The glycogen depletion part and handling time of feet part don't matter for the 5k or 10k.
How important is the long run for 5k/10k racing? In an effort to reduce load on my haglund's deformity (very prone to insertional achilles pain), I am considering just doing a long XT session instead of a long run. So I would get 3 sub T sessions, 3 easy run days (usually two runs adding up to 80min), and 1 long XT session of 90min.
Anyone try this? What potential pitfalls am I missing? The longest race I plan on doing in the near future is 7 miles. Most of my sub T sessions get to around 10 miles anyway.
to me, not important at all
i think a long cross training session is better than a long run
60 min run is probably fine for the most part, maybe some times going longer, but i don’t think its needed when youre getting to an overall amount of time
i think a long cross training session is better than a long run
60 min run is probably fine for the most part, maybe some times going longer, but i don’t think its needed when youre getting to an overall amount of time
You might know this, but I don't even think sirpoc is bothered with long runs really? Unless he's training for the marathon? I remember in his half builds in 2024 he was capping it at 80 mins. Now, doesn't even look like he bothers? This tracks with him saying he's just ticking things over. Just splits it into 90 mins over two 45 min runs the new approach? That alone is telling, as I suspect when he doesn't do something, it's simply because he doesn't really see it's necessary? I'm mentioning this as he seems to constantly come up smelling of roses whatever choices he makes.
I thought the long run was used as kind of a 4th workout to get a large amount of load in? For those who track load on interval.icu, long run is usually as much if not more than subt and this method is all about getting as much load in each week that’s repeatable.
I think it's been discussed before. Could working on a 14 day period specifically just alternating SubT/Easy without a long run provide any better comparative gains for 5k/10k?
I thought the long run was used as kind of a 4th workout to get a large amount of load in? For those who track load on interval.icu, long run is usually as much if not more than subt and this method is all about getting as much load in each week that’s repeatable.
I feel like the fatigue cost and associated injury risk of runs longer than an hour outweighs the load gained at least for injury prone people. If you're not racing anything over an hour what's the point really?
Just seen sirpoc at the British masters. Was going strong and in the lead, 300m to go he pulled up, looked like something just went. Just spoke go him, said it felt like he got shot in the calf. Doubtful he can run main thing he came for, the 10,000.
I think it's been discussed before. Could working on a 14 day period specifically just alternating SubT/Easy without a long run provide any better comparative gains for 5k/10k?
I did this for a while and ended up hating it. The complete lack of variation as well as being cut adrift from the weekly cycle has a psychological cost imo. Physically I felt fatigue was gradually accumulating and never being released as it is when you have two consecutive E days. Although it comes down to modulating load to avoid accumulation, it's on a much finer edge when you don't have that regular 2-day buffer for a mini-reset. Unfortunately I don't have any metrics to report on its effectiveness, but even if it proved better than vanilla I definitely woudn't try it again.
Just seen sirpoc at the British masters. Was going strong and in the lead, 300m to go he pulled up, looked like something just went. Just spoke go him, said it felt like he got shot in the calf. Doubtful he can run main thing he came for, the 10,000.
If only he had been accommodating his body to faster running by occasionally running faster, maybe he wouldn't have gotten hurt.
If only he had been accommodating his body to faster running by occasionally running faster, maybe he wouldn't have gotten hurt.
Ha ha it's a legitimate question, but I probably I should never have run and just done the 10k. Woke up feeling a slight tweak which isn't totally unheard of for me. Weirdly the last time I have felt anything like that in my calves was waking up the day of my most recent 5k. Then I ran, and it totally went away. This morning was the same so thought I was good.
Felt great, strong in the warm up (2x4mins sub t +2x35s goal pace), then great in the race, then got the snake bite, jumped up out of nowhere. It's one of those where it's not terribly bad now, but at the time makes you stop and shocks you in an instant. To me it's a reminder why I don't do anything needing speed, even races. I only entered the mile as it was on the same day. I'm fully made of glass though when it comes to this sort of thing, I'm sure not everyone is susceptible to this sort of thing or as cautious as me.
There's a million and one things you could do - but one of the reasons I stopped doing strides or any speedwork was simply because back in 2022 I got injured 2 or 3 times either doing strides and pulling/straining something, or during some 200m repeats. in both scenarios it being fine for weeks, until it wasn't.
At least I can join my hero cheetodust now, in getting injured in some way every time he runs a mile, 1500 or puts on spikes.
First time trial since backing off from double easy days six weeks ago.
19:47 pretty much in line with training paces. Expected, despite the hit to the ego given i was 70' faster a year ago but that's where i am at now.
Was on 8h40min and moved back to the 6h30min framework from James book.
Rest HR is back to low 40's - high 30's. It was stuck in the mid 40's which was very unusual for me. Due to my schedule the PM run can only begin at 7, so i was probably taking too much fatigue into Sub-T sessions. In the future, work life being the same, i'll probably give a try to a 2nd run on Sub-T days instead.
Been cycling as a commute more consistently as well. Nothing especial, easy, 10 bpm lower than an easy run. There is something about going slow on the bike after a session day that just feels right. Around 15k per day.
I am trying to manage expections as well. Probably won't be racing again till i come near my PB. Avoid disruption as much as i can. In six weeks i'll go again.
If only he had been accommodating his body to faster running by occasionally running faster, maybe he wouldn't have gotten hurt.
Ha ha it's a legitimate question, but I probably I should never have run and just done the 10k. Woke up feeling a slight tweak which isn't totally unheard of for me. Weirdly the last time I have felt anything like that in my calves was waking up the day of my most recent 5k. Then I ran, and it totally went away. This morning was the same so thought I was good.
Felt great, strong in the warm up (2x4mins sub t +2x35s goal pace), then great in the race, then got the snake bite, jumped up out of nowhere. It's one of those where it's not terribly bad now, but at the time makes you stop and shocks you in an instant. To me it's a reminder why I don't do anything needing speed, even races. I only entered the mile as it was on the same day. I'm fully made of glass though when it comes to this sort of thing, I'm sure not everyone is susceptible to this sort of thing or as cautious as me.
There's a million and one things you could do - but one of the reasons I stopped doing strides or any speedwork was simply because back in 2022 I got injured 2 or 3 times either doing strides and pulling/straining something, or during some 200m repeats. in both scenarios it being fine for weeks, until it wasn't.
At least I can join my hero cheetodust now, in getting injured in some way every time he runs a mile, 1500 or puts on spikes.
Probably bro science and placebo, but sleeves have saved me or at least given me some confidence back.
I still limit any kind of speed, much like cheetodust being an 800/mile guy here, but I feel I can just about lace up and not do calves damage on race day. The shortest NSM repeats I do is 1k, I still race well and have "outran" my former self just on volume, pushing up threshold from below, consistency, but I'm still scared every time I lace up for anything shorter than 5 mins I'm going to do something calve related.
Wonder if this is also something us old guys go through? When i was in my teens and early 20s was my hammies. All about the calves now.
This is a really interesting post, basically a controlled scientific experiment. Do you have any metrics on change over the year for the NSM and 'control' groups? And the two previous top scorers really don't grasp that they've been overtaken by a change of training? If they like their 400s that's fine, but don't they want to get faster as well?
No, they don't grasp it at all. One of them goes back 30 years running and is convinced we must be lying about what we are doing, or intensities. It's really just 3x subthreshold a week and fill in the blanks. Some people I assume just find that you can get better by stripping training back to the bones, simply too unbelievable.
One interesting thing I have seen is for all but one of us, we can actually no longer reach as high max HR In a race. I refuse to believe we all suddenly just lost max HR in the same year, so there might be something to that pattern, building a huge diesel engine you do give up some of the high end effort?
But, does it matter? If I raced myself in a 5k even versus last year, I would see myself hit the bell, as I come into the home straight for finish. So really, who cares if I can't hit the same max? I'd beat myself very convincingly also in a mile versus 2024 me as well.
Btw, one of our guys was at the masters today and had a chat with sirpoc himself. Said he was exactly as you imagine, genuine, friendly and was in good spirits despite a disappointing day. There's something nice about that despite this thread, and I'm sure he finds it's odd people go up to him at races, he's still just a hobby jogger with no interest in making videos, promoting shoes or any of that nonsense. Took the time to ask all about my teammates race in a slightly older age group.
I do wonder why other untalented designated team coaches like a lot of clubs have, don't just plug and play this like I have to the runners or as someone did last year. As I said previously though, it's nice to seemingly have an advantage!
This is a really interesting post, basically a controlled scientific experiment. Do you have any metrics on change over the year for the NSM and 'control' groups? And the two previous top scorers really don't grasp that they've been overtaken by a change of training? If they like their 400s that's fine, but don't they want to get faster as well?
No, they don't grasp it at all. One of them goes back 30 years running and is convinced we must be lying about what we are doing, or intensities. It's really just 3x subthreshold a week and fill in the blanks. Some people I assume just find that you can get better by stripping training back to the bones, simply too unbelievable.
One interesting thing I have seen is for all but one of us, we can actually no longer reach as high max HR In a race. I refuse to believe we all suddenly just lost max HR in the same year, so there might be something to that pattern, building a huge diesel engine you do give up some of the high end effort?
But, does it matter? If I raced myself in a 5k even versus last year, I would see myself hit the bell, as I come into the home straight for finish. So really, who cares if I can't hit the same max? I'd beat myself very convincingly also in a mile versus 2024 me as well.
Btw, one of our guys was at the masters today and had a chat with sirpoc himself. Said he was exactly as you imagine, genuine, friendly and was in good spirits despite a disappointing day. There's something nice about that despite this thread, and I'm sure he finds it's odd people go up to him at races, he's still just a hobby jogger with no interest in making videos, promoting shoes or any of that nonsense. Took the time to ask all about my teammates race in a slightly older age group.
I do wonder why other untalented designated team coaches like a lot of clubs have, don't just plug and play this like I have to the runners or as someone did last year. As I said previously though, it's nice to seemingly have an advantage!
Anaerobic capacity has been lost, which explains the lower heart rate in races.
The only question is, do we assume max hr is still the same, which affects the easy 70% of max etc?
One interesting thing I have seen is for all but one of us, we can actually no longer reach as high max HR In a race. I refuse to believe we all suddenly just lost max HR in the same year, so there might be something to that pattern, building a huge diesel engine you do give up some of the high end effort?
How often do you schedule anarobic sessions (like time tests)?
Probably bro science and placebo, but sleeves have saved me or at least given me some confidence back.
I still limit any kind of speed, much like cheetodust being an 800/mile guy here, but I feel I can just about lace up and not do calves damage on race day. The shortest NSM repeats I do is 1k, I still race well and have "outran" my former self just on volume, pushing up threshold from below, consistency, but I'm still scared every time I lace up for anything shorter than 5 mins I'm going to do something calve related.
Wonder if this is also something us old guys go through? When i was in my teens and early 20s was my hammies. All about the calves now.
oh im crazy all in on sleeves for years
just trying to convince these other two knuckleheads