This thread was deleted by a volunteer moderator. I certainly don't want a thread this big deleted so I've restored. THat being said, this thread has served it's purpose. I've closed it to new posts.
We have a new 2024 vaccine thread here. New people don't need to try to wade through 20,000 posts to figure out what is going on.
Do you think Remdesivir was indicated after the viral replication cycle was complete (day 7)? Or contraindicated? Was it indicated on like day 14 during the massive inflammatory, coagulapathic pathophysiology? I’m being serious.
Did Midazolam and propofol kill any very sick, vented patients? Any? Was there any iatrogenesis whatsoever, even though the official data will never admit this?
You didn’t answer 2600bro, as per usual. Nor are you a doctor. Or even an expert. You have a BS (maybe MS) in biochem or chem & work in a lab, probably for a pharma company. You are a made man.
I can’t just answer every long manic post about treatment protocols. Give me a break ok.
The remdesivir clinical trial found basically none of the adverse events you listed so I have a hard time caring about whether dosing was 1 day late or something… it just wasn’t that risky.
I asked for data or expert recommendations. As in “antithrombotics were not used in COVID patients because Fauci/FDA/CDC said not to, and here’s a link showing that COVID patients were dying of blood clots because drs were following the guidelines”. Every ICU patient gets heparin for DVT prophylaxis, not just COVID patients. And every patient with severe Covid gets steroids.
Post a link to a study that shows that full anticoagulation with apixaban, or anti platelet therapy with aspirin reduces mortality. That’s what I asked for.
And “I know people in the ER” isn’t data. You’re making it sound like ‘the experts’ are recommending people mix benzos with propofol. Or that you would rather patients with a breathing tube not get sedatives. Again… just asking you to post the guidelines that say ‘mix benzos with propofol for deep sedation in Covid patients’.
Did every serious Covid patient get Heparins? You sure? You want to stand by that?
Me thinks you’re not a doctor.
Yes, every serious COVID patient got heparin. Yes, I would stand by that. This is an easy one. The American College of Chest Physicians issued guidelines on the prevention of blood clots in hospitalized patients in 2012. NOT giving an ICU patient heparin would be medical malpractice. This is one of the "core measures" that hospitals get evaluated for by regulators (CMS and the Joint Commission), required for continued hospital accreditation. The only patients in an ICU who would not get heparin are those who are bleeding or have an absolute contraindication (anaphylactic allergy to it).
Here's another fun fact for you. One out of every 3000-4000 patients who get heparin develop heparin-induced thrombocytopenia as a side effect. You might recognize immune thrombocytopenia because it's the same side effect of the J&J vaccine that can cause blood clots. Except the J&J vaccine causes it in 1 out of 300,000, so literally 100 times less likely than your favorite drug heparin.
Has anyone actually done a study on Apixiban PLUS Heparins PLUS aspirin PLUS corticosteroids versus mortality? I sincerely doubt it. So, you would rather doctors not practice ANY art of medicine to prevent death before the data was complete? You sound like 2600bro.
Me thinks you’re not a doctor.
No one would do a study this reckless, because it would be gross medical malpractice and outright negligent. You don't give heparin PLUS apixaban, because the results are obvious. Patients would hemorrhage. "Me thinks you are not a doctor and have no idea what you're talking about".
There are plenty of studies looking at either one alone, and in both high-intensity and low-intensity anticoagulation protocols. Any regimen to prevent DVT / PE in hospitalized patients with COVID would help, and apixaban was no better than the regular heparin protocols we've been using for literally 20 years in ICU patients to prevent blood clots.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
So you think that these people who had the chance to be vaccinated prior to Omicron, but chose not to, would somehow magically be conferred immunity without the Omicron surge?
No I think many of them took a stupid risk and now have subpar immunity and should still get vaccinated.
I think we are sane enough to differentiate that the ends here - everyone having antigen exposure - is not equivalent to saying the value of the route taken is path independent.
The point isn’t whether they took a stupid risk or that their immunity is subpar. The point is that Omicron provided immunity to a great number of people who never would have had it. Omicron was the impetus for ending the pandemic.
Yes and it was a stupid choice to remain unvaccinated and cost many people their lives.
Remember - You’re responding to Covidicy who maintains that vaccination wasn’t necessary since Omicron conferred immunity.
So you think that these people who had the chance to be vaccinated prior to Omicron, but chose not to, would somehow magically be conferred immunity without the Omicron surge?
Has anyone actually done a study on Apixiban PLUS Heparins PLUS aspirin PLUS corticosteroids versus mortality? I sincerely doubt it. So, you would rather doctors not practice ANY art of medicine to prevent death before the data was complete? You sound like 2600bro.
Me thinks you’re not a doctor.
No one would do a study this reckless, because it would be gross medical malpractice and outright negligent. You don't give heparin PLUS apixaban, because the results are obvious. Patients would hemorrhage. "Me thinks you are not a doctor and have no idea what you're talking about".
There are plenty of studies looking at either one alone, and in both high-intensity and low-intensity anticoagulation protocols. Any regimen to prevent DVT / PE in hospitalized patients with COVID would help, and apixaban was no better than the regular heparin protocols we've been using for literally 20 years in ICU patients to prevent blood clots.
You're not a pharmacist bro. Stop pretending your crash course of pharmacology in nursing school amounts to anything
No one would do a study this reckless, because it would be gross medical malpractice and outright negligent. You don't give heparin PLUS apixaban, because the results are obvious. Patients would hemorrhage. "Me thinks you are not a doctor and have no idea what you're talking about".
There are plenty of studies looking at either one alone, and in both high-intensity and low-intensity anticoagulation protocols. Any regimen to prevent DVT / PE in hospitalized patients with COVID would help, and apixaban was no better than the regular heparin protocols we've been using for literally 20 years in ICU patients to prevent blood clots.
You're not a pharmacist bro. Stop pretending your crash course of pharmacology in nursing school amounts to anything
Has anyone actually done a study on Apixiban PLUS Heparins PLUS aspirin PLUS corticosteroids versus mortality? I sincerely doubt it. So, you would rather doctors not practice ANY art of medicine to prevent death before the data was complete? You sound like 2600bro.
Me thinks you’re not a doctor.
No one would do a study this reckless, because it would be gross medical malpractice and outright negligent. You don't give heparin PLUS apixaban, because the results are obvious. Patients would hemorrhage. "Me thinks you are not a doctor and have no idea what you're talking about".
There are plenty of studies looking at either one alone, and in both high-intensity and low-intensity anticoagulation protocols. Any regimen to prevent DVT / PE in hospitalized patients with COVID would help, and apixaban was no better than the regular heparin protocols we've been using for literally 20 years in ICU patients to prevent blood clots.
There are many studies out there looking at Heparin plus Apixiban as safely administered together.
The aim of this study was to explore the clinical efficacy of conventional heparin anticoagulation in combination with apixaban in the treatment of patients with cerebral venous thrombosis (CVT) and its influence on serum D-d...
What about therapeutic Heparins in a prophylatic (even outpatient setting) treatment? This is the major point I haven’t been able to get across. We had a number of “cocktails” we could’ve administered before patients slid downhill, including budesonide, cypraheptadine, singular, steroids, Fluvoxamine, LMWH, colchicine, and, heck, plain old vit D that could’ve been administered intravenously. 2600bro keeps talking about 300,000 lives. What about before the vaccine was available? Or even once it was available but patients dissented? There were many doctors who had great success bucking traditional dogma, because they were actually willing to treat patients absent very specific data, because they relied on their training. How many people did we kill on ventilation? So, 300,000 becomes kind of an arbitrary and silly number to throw around.
Moreover, convalescence with one of the original Covid strains plus Omicron confers great immunity. The CDC’s own data shows two vaccinations is the equivalent of infection alone (though there are published data suggesting natural immunity is better) and three vaccinations PLUS infection is only marginally better than infection alone. That is not and never has been advocating against vaccinating. There are certain demographics that needed to get vaccinated, no question.
No I think many of them took a stupid risk and now have subpar immunity and should still get vaccinated.
I think we are sane enough to differentiate that the ends here - everyone having antigen exposure - is not equivalent to saying the value of the route taken is path independent.
The point isn’t whether they took a stupid risk or that their immunity is subpar. The point is that Omicron provided immunity to a great number of people who never would have had it. Omicron was the impetus for ending the pandemic.
You didn’t read the study did you? This was for stroke with active clots. And the didn’t give the drugs together. They have heparin and then when they decided to switch to an oral drug (so the patients could start planning hospital discharge) they used apixaban instead of warfarin.
Here’s what the authors said:
”After discontinuation of intravenous heparin therapy, apixaban was administered orally twice a day at a dose of 5 mg and measured 5 weeks later.”
You didn’t read the study did you? This was for stroke with active clots. And the didn’t give the drugs together. They have heparin and then when they decided to switch to an oral drug (so the patients could start planning hospital discharge) they used apixaban instead of warfarin.
Here’s what the authors said:
”After discontinuation of intravenous heparin therapy, apixaban was administered orally twice a day at a dose of 5 mg and measured 5 weeks later.”
I’m trying to make the point that these drugs are stackable. So what? 12 hours after last Apixiban administration start a different anticoagulant. You made it sound like stacking medications was contraindicated. Show me the published study showing Apixiban folllowed by LMWH followed by aspirin in quick succession. It’s not out there in a Covid setting.
No one would do a study this reckless, because it would be gross medical malpractice and outright negligent. You don't give heparin PLUS apixaban, because the results are obvious. Patients would hemorrhage. "Me thinks you are not a doctor and have no idea what you're talking about".
There are plenty of studies looking at either one alone, and in both high-intensity and low-intensity anticoagulation protocols. Any regimen to prevent DVT / PE in hospitalized patients with COVID would help, and apixaban was no better than the regular heparin protocols we've been using for literally 20 years in ICU patients to prevent blood clots.
There are many studies out there looking at Heparin plus Apixiban as safely administered together.
What about therapeutic Heparins in a prophylatic (even outpatient setting) treatment? This is the major point I haven’t been able to get across. We had a number of “cocktails” we could’ve administered before patients slid downhill, including budesonide, cypraheptadine, singular, steroids, Fluvoxamine, LMWH, colchicine, and, heck, plain old vit D that could’ve been administered intravenously. 2600bro keeps talking about 300,000 lives. What about before the vaccine was available? Or even once it was available but patients dissented? There were many doctors who had great success bucking traditional dogma, because they were actually willing to treat patients absent very specific data, because they relied on their training. How many people did we kill on ventilation? So, 300,000 becomes kind of an arbitrary and silly number to throw around.
Moreover, convalescence with one of the original Covid strains plus Omicron confers great immunity. The CDC’s own data shows two vaccinations is the equivalent of infection alone (though there are published data suggesting natural immunity is better) and three vaccinations PLUS infection is only marginally better than infection alone. That is not and never has been advocating against vaccinating. There are certain demographics that needed to get vaccinated, no question.
What about therapeutic prophylaxis? We didn’t bother.
No I think many of them took a stupid risk and now have subpar immunity and should still get vaccinated.
I think we are sane enough to differentiate that the ends here - everyone having antigen exposure - is not equivalent to saying the value of the route taken is path independent.
The point isn’t whether they took a stupid risk or that their immunity is subpar. The point is that Omicron provided immunity to a great number of people who never would have had it. Omicron was the impetus for ending the pandemic.
This thread is famously lacking in nuance and measured discussion. So unfortunately when people like Covidicy post thing I have to make sure I don’t imply support for their conclusions.
I think the phrase “ending the pandemic” 1) implies it was necessary and sufficient 2) casts Omicron mass infection in a better light than something that killed a couple hundred thousand people.
Neither are true. The pandemic could have ended without Omicron; and it certainly would have been better.
What about therapeutic Heparins in a prophylatic (even outpatient setting) treatment? This is the major point I haven’t been able to get across. We had a number of “cocktails” we could’ve administered before patients slid downhill, including budesonide, cypraheptadine, singular, steroids, Fluvoxamine, LMWH, colchicine, and, heck, plain old vit D that could’ve been administered intravenously. 2600bro keeps talking about 300,000 lives. What about before the vaccine was available? Or even once it was available but patients dissented? There were many doctors who had great success bucking traditional dogma, because they were actually willing to treat patients absent very specific data, because they relied on their training. How many people did we kill on ventilation? So, 300,000 becomes kind of an arbitrary and silly number to throw around.
Moreover, convalescence with one of the original Covid strains plus Omicron confers great immunity. The CDC’s own data shows two vaccinations is the equivalent of infection alone (though there are published data suggesting natural immunity is better) and three vaccinations PLUS infection is only marginally better than infection alone. That is not and never has been advocating against vaccinating. There are certain demographics that needed to get vaccinated, no question.
What about therapeutic prophylaxis? We didn’t bother.
You really act like we can just prescribe things with know adverse side effects to broad swaths of the sick population with no studies because they might help.
“Just one more trial” guy has become “why didn’t we prescribe my bespoke cocktail with zero evidence guy”
No one would do a study this reckless, because it would be gross medical malpractice and outright negligent. You don't give heparin PLUS apixaban, because the results are obvious. Patients would hemorrhage. "Me thinks you are not a doctor and have no idea what you're talking about".
There are plenty of studies looking at either one alone, and in both high-intensity and low-intensity anticoagulation protocols. Any regimen to prevent DVT / PE in hospitalized patients with COVID would help, and apixaban was no better than the regular heparin protocols we've been using for literally 20 years in ICU patients to prevent blood clots.
“Eighty-six percent of patients received prophylaxis or treatment with UFH or LMWH within the 24-hour period prior to apixaban initiation. Patients were initiated on apixaban for the treatment of suspected or confirmed VTE (67%) or AFib (33%). All coagulation parameters remained abnormal but stable throughout the 10-day monitoring period. No patients experienced any major bleeding events or thrombosis throughout the study period. There were four deaths during the follow-up period, all deemed unrelated to coagulopathy or bleeding.”
Introduction Despite the use of unfractionated heparin (UFH) or low molecular weight heparin (LMWH), rates of thromboembolic disease, and subsequent morbidity and mortality remain unacceptably high in patients with severe nov...
There's gold in them there purebloods who get murdered by denying medical care because they refuse the clot shots. You can count on the elite not having taken any actual "vaccines" and only wanting pureblood bodies to harvest for organs, tissue, and blood.
The widow of a man who died after being refused an organ transplant because he had not taken the experimental COVID shots required by many governments has revealed in an interview that she was asked to donate HIS organs.
This is as damning as it gets: The Truth is slowly, but surely coming out. Lower level useful idiots and apparatchiks were never going to be spared by getting placebo saline injections, but favoritism was always baked into th...
What about therapeutic prophylaxis? We didn’t bother.
You really act like we can just prescribe things with know adverse side effects to broad swaths of the sick population with no studies because they might help.
“Just one more trial” guy has become “why didn’t we prescribe my bespoke cocktail with zero evidence guy”
Because we can! It’s called practicing medicine using medical training and knows. But conventional dogma forced doctors who were willing to do this and who saved lives outside the system. As did you.
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