This thread was deleted by a volunteer moderator. I certainly don't want a thread this big deleted so I've restored. THat being said, this thread has served it's purpose. I've closed it to new posts.
We have a new 2024 vaccine thread here. New people don't need to try to wade through 20,000 posts to figure out what is going on.
True. Omicron was the driving force ending the pandemic. It “vaccinated” or “boosted” a very high percentage of people whether they wanted to be or not. Unfortunately, of course, it killed a lot along the way as well.
Omicron killed mostly the unvaccinated though - it’s a no brainer
Infection alone or infection PLUS 3 doses according to the CDC. Remember, if you believe the CDC, two doses plus infection was exactly equal to infection alone versus serious outcomes. The booster plus infection (hybrid immunity) was only marginally better. Nevertheless, Omicron (infection) is what gave durable cell-mediated immunity and ended the pandemic. Almost every single person got Omicron or her sub-lineages, vaccinated or not. Including me and it was nothing. But I’m also not old or sickly.
1) Vaccination gives durable response, we have more data on it than Omicron.
2) Hundreds of thousands of Americans died to achieve infection driven immunity.
Team mass death is persuasive as usual.
At the onset of Omicron, had everyone in the US who wanted to be vaccinated (excluding immuniocomp) had the opportunity to be vaccinated?
Infection alone or infection PLUS 3 doses according to the CDC. Remember, if you believe the CDC, two doses plus infection was exactly equal to infection alone versus serious outcomes. The booster plus infection (hybrid immunity) was only marginally better. Nevertheless, Omicron (infection) is what gave durable cell-mediated immunity and ended the pandemic. Almost every single person got Omicron or her sub-lineages, vaccinated or not. Including me and it was nothing. But I’m also not old or sickly.
Omicron causes mild infection and a corresponding weak and less durable immune response (if that’s the only exposure to COVID a person has). It did not end the pandemic alone.
‘Unlike WA1 and Delta, Omicron replicates to low levels in the lungs and brains of infected animals, leading to mild disease with reduced expression of pro-inflammatory cytokines and diminished activation of lung-resident T cells. Sera from individuals who were unvaccinated and infected with Omicron show the same limited neutralization of only Omicron itself.’
Absolutely, but I think arguing with Covidicy on this point is a lost cause.
They always have an angle where 1) it doesn’t really matter hundreds of thousands died since it helped with immunity 2) infection is probably good enough for most people… (data pending)
thus mass vaccination wasn’t required. It’s inane but they are sticking to it.
Infection alone or infection PLUS 3 doses according to the CDC. Remember, if you believe the CDC, two doses plus infection was exactly equal to infection alone versus serious outcomes. The booster plus infection (hybrid immunity) was only marginally better. Nevertheless, Omicron (infection) is what gave durable cell-mediated immunity and ended the pandemic. Almost every single person got Omicron or her sub-lineages, vaccinated or not. Including me and it was nothing. But I’m also not old or sickly.
Omicron causes mild infection and a corresponding weak and less durable immune response (if that’s the only exposure to COVID a person has). It did not end the pandemic alone.
‘Unlike WA1 and Delta, Omicron replicates to low levels in the lungs and brains of infected animals, leading to mild disease with reduced expression of pro-inflammatory cytokines and diminished activation of lung-resident T cells. Sera from individuals who were unvaccinated and infected with Omicron show the same limited neutralization of only Omicron itself.’
Ok, I think my point was, assuming a person was either convalescent or vaccinated or both, Omicron solidified herd immunity.
Infection alone or infection PLUS 3 doses according to the CDC. Remember, if you believe the CDC, two doses plus infection was exactly equal to infection alone versus serious outcomes. The booster plus infection (hybrid immunity) was only marginally better. Nevertheless, Omicron (infection) is what gave durable cell-mediated immunity and ended the pandemic. Almost every single person got Omicron or her sub-lineages, vaccinated or not. Including me and it was nothing. But I’m also not old or sickly.
1) Vaccination gives durable response, we have more data on it than Omicron.
2) Hundreds of thousands of Americans died to achieve infection driven immunity.
Team mass death is persuasive as usual.
1.) Convalescence also gives a durable response, as does hybrid immunity.
2.) The elderly and the sickly and especially both should’ve been vaccinated. Have never said otherwise. Somehow you are more ok with giving extremely hepato- and nephrotoxic Remdesivir post viral replication cycle ALONG with Midozolam-ketamine-propofol sedative protocol for ventilation (which killed tens of thousands of patients) but not some simple anti thrombotic and anti inflammatory protocols because TOGETHER they weren’t adequately tested for efficacy and safety. So pick your poison. You advocated for death whether you want to admit it or not.
This isn’t fukking difficult. Sometimes medicine is art as much as it is science. Remdesivir was never been shown to be WORTH it given its safety profile snd, ESPECIALLY, when administered after day 7. Day 8 was the post-viral cytokine storm. It doesn’t matter that your beloved Topol was on Gilead’s board. That doesn’t mean this was a PROVEN, PROPER therapy dispensed the way it was. If you were true to yourself, you would admit it wasn’t properly vetted AT THE TIME for the indication under which it was employed. The data wasn’t there.
1.) Convalescence also gives a durable response, as does hybrid immunity.
2.) The elderly and the sickly and especially both should’ve been vaccinated. Have never said otherwise. Somehow you are more ok with giving extremely hepato- and nephrotoxic Remdesivir post viral replication cycle ALONG with Midozolam-ketamine-propofol sedative protocol for ventilation (which killed tens of thousands of patients) but not some simple anti thrombotic and anti inflammatory protocols because TOGETHER they weren’t adequately tested for efficacy and safety. So pick your poison. You advocated for death whether you want to admit it or not.
This isn’t fukking difficult. Sometimes medicine is art as much as it is science. Remdesivir was never been shown to be WORTH it given its safety profile snd, ESPECIALLY, when administered after day 7. Day 8 was the post-viral cytokine storm. It doesn’t matter that your beloved Topol was on Gilead’s board. That doesn’t mean this was a PROVEN, PROPER therapy dispensed the way it was. If you were true to yourself, you would admit it wasn’t properly vetted AT THE TIME for the indication under which it was employed. The data wasn’t there.
You bring up ‘sedative protocol’ a lot (while misspelling the drugs). Where is this combination protocol, who studied it, who recommended it, and who was using it? Please provide a source and some data.
And provide a source for what ‘simple anti-thrombotics’ would’ve reduced mortality.
At the onset of Omicron, had everyone in the US who wanted to be vaccinated (excluding immuniocomp) had the opportunity to be vaccinated?
Yes and it was a stupid choice to remain unvaccinated and cost many people their lives.
Remember - You’re responding to Covidicy who maintains that vaccination wasn’t necessary since Omicron conferred immunity.
So you think that these people who had the chance to be vaccinated prior to Omicron, but chose not to, would somehow magically be conferred immunity without the Omicron surge?
1) Vaccination gives durable response, we have more data on it than Omicron.
2) Hundreds of thousands of Americans died to achieve infection driven immunity.
Team mass death is persuasive as usual.
1.) Convalescence also gives a durable response, as does hybrid immunity.
2.) The elderly and the sickly and especially both should’ve been vaccinated. Have never said otherwise. Somehow you are more ok with giving extremely hepato- and nephrotoxic Remdesivir post viral replication cycle ALONG with Midozolam-ketamine-propofol sedative protocol for ventilation (which killed tens of thousands of patients) but not some simple anti thrombotic and anti inflammatory protocols because TOGETHER they weren’t adequately tested for efficacy and safety. So pick your poison. You advocated for death whether you want to admit it or not.
This isn’t fukking difficult. Sometimes medicine is art as much as it is science. Remdesivir was never been shown to be WORTH it given its safety profile snd, ESPECIALLY, when administered after day 7. Day 8 was the post-viral cytokine storm. It doesn’t matter that your beloved Topol was on Gilead’s board. That doesn’t mean this was a PROVEN, PROPER therapy dispensed the way it was. If you were true to yourself, you would admit it wasn’t properly vetted AT THE TIME for the indication under which it was employed. The data wasn’t there.
I posted the Remdesivir COVID clinical trial adverse event reporting 3 or 4 pages. None of the risks you claim were present. Why? Jumping through a lot of hoops to deny that COVID killed people.
This post was edited 13 seconds after it was posted.
1.) Convalescence also gives a durable response, as does hybrid immunity.
2.) The elderly and the sickly and especially both should’ve been vaccinated. Have never said otherwise. Somehow you are more ok with giving extremely hepato- and nephrotoxic Remdesivir post viral replication cycle ALONG with Midozolam-ketamine-propofol sedative protocol for ventilation (which killed tens of thousands of patients) but not some simple anti thrombotic and anti inflammatory protocols because TOGETHER they weren’t adequately tested for efficacy and safety. So pick your poison. You advocated for death whether you want to admit it or not.
This isn’t fukking difficult. Sometimes medicine is art as much as it is science. Remdesivir was never been shown to be WORTH it given its safety profile snd, ESPECIALLY, when administered after day 7. Day 8 was the post-viral cytokine storm. It doesn’t matter that your beloved Topol was on Gilead’s board. That doesn’t mean this was a PROVEN, PROPER therapy dispensed the way it was. If you were true to yourself, you would admit it wasn’t properly vetted AT THE TIME for the indication under which it was employed. The data wasn’t there.
You bring up ‘sedative protocol’ a lot (while misspelling the drugs). Where is this combination protocol, who studied it, who recommended it, and who was using it? Please provide a source and some data.
And provide a source for what ‘simple anti-thrombotics’ would’ve reduced mortality.
Ummm, Heparins, Apixaban, aspirin, corticosteroids, among many others. We’ve been over this before here.
In patients with severe or critical Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) manifestations, a thromboinflammatory syndrome, with diffuse microvascular thrombosis, is increasingly evident as the final step of pro-inflammatory cyto...
It is common medical knowledge that Midazolam and propofol are used together for heavy sedation. Don’t you work in a hospital? You would know this. But, do a simple google search and you will get your answer. I have ER friends who corroborated this protocol, particularly the benzodiazepine and propofol mix.
My autocorrect doesn’t like Midazolam for some odd reason.
1.) Convalescence also gives a durable response, as does hybrid immunity.
2.) The elderly and the sickly and especially both should’ve been vaccinated. Have never said otherwise. Somehow you are more ok with giving extremely hepato- and nephrotoxic Remdesivir post viral replication cycle ALONG with Midozolam-ketamine-propofol sedative protocol for ventilation (which killed tens of thousands of patients) but not some simple anti thrombotic and anti inflammatory protocols because TOGETHER they weren’t adequately tested for efficacy and safety. So pick your poison. You advocated for death whether you want to admit it or not.
This isn’t fukking difficult. Sometimes medicine is art as much as it is science. Remdesivir was never been shown to be WORTH it given its safety profile snd, ESPECIALLY, when administered after day 7. Day 8 was the post-viral cytokine storm. It doesn’t matter that your beloved Topol was on Gilead’s board. That doesn’t mean this was a PROVEN, PROPER therapy dispensed the way it was. If you were true to yourself, you would admit it wasn’t properly vetted AT THE TIME for the indication under which it was employed. The data wasn’t there.
I posted the Remdesivir COVID clinical trial adverse event reporting 3 or 4 pages. None of the risks you claim were present. Why? Jumping through a lot of hoops to deny that COVID killed people.
Do you think Remdesivir was indicated after the viral replication cycle was complete (day 7)? Or contraindicated? Was it indicated on like day 14 during the massive inflammatory, coagulapathic pathophysiology? I’m being serious.
Did Midazolam and propofol kill any very sick, vented patients? Any? Was there any iatrogenesis whatsoever, even though the official data will never admit this?
You bring up ‘sedative protocol’ a lot (while misspelling the drugs). Where is this combination protocol, who studied it, who recommended it, and who was using it? Please provide a source and some data.
And provide a source for what ‘simple anti-thrombotics’ would’ve reduced mortality.
Ummm, Heparins, Apixaban, aspirin, corticosteroids, among many others. We’ve been over this before here.
It is common medical knowledge that Midazolam and propofol are used together for heavy sedation. Don’t you work in a hospital? You would know this. But, do a simple google search and you will get your answer. I have ER friends who corroborated this protocol, particularly the benzodiazepine and propofol mix.
My autocorrect doesn’t like Midazolam for some odd reason.
You bring up ‘sedative protocol’ a lot (while misspelling the drugs). Where is this combination protocol, who studied it, who recommended it, and who was using it? Please provide a source and some data.
And provide a source for what ‘simple anti-thrombotics’ would’ve reduced mortality.
Ummm, Heparins, Apixaban, aspirin, corticosteroids, among many others. We’ve been over this before here.
It is common medical knowledge that Midazolam and propofol are used together for heavy sedation. Don’t you work in a hospital? You would know this. But, do a simple google search and you will get your answer. I have ER friends who corroborated this protocol, particularly the benzodiazepine and propofol mix.
My autocorrect doesn’t like Midazolam for some odd reason.
I asked for data or expert recommendations. As in “antithrombotics were not used in COVID patients because Fauci/FDA/CDC said not to, and here’s a link showing that COVID patients were dying of blood clots because drs were following the guidelines”. Every ICU patient gets heparin for DVT prophylaxis, not just COVID patients. And every patient with severe Covid gets steroids.
Post a link to a study that shows that full anticoagulation with apixaban, or anti platelet therapy with aspirin reduces mortality. That’s what I asked for.
And “I know people in the ER” isn’t data. You’re making it sound like ‘the experts’ are recommending people mix benzos with propofol. Or that you would rather patients with a breathing tube not get sedatives. Again… just asking you to post the guidelines that say ‘mix benzos with propofol for deep sedation in Covid patients’.
This post was edited 50 seconds after it was posted.
It is common medical knowledge that Midazolam and propofol are used together for heavy sedation. Don’t you work in a hospital? You would know this. But, do a simple google search and you will get your answer. I have ER friends who corroborated this protocol, particularly the benzodiazepine and propofol mix.
My autocorrect doesn’t like Midazolam for some odd reason.
I asked for data or expert recommendations. As in “antithrombotics were not used in COVID patients because Fauci/FDA/CDC said not to, and here’s a link showing that COVID patients were dying of blood clots because drs were following the guidelines”. Every ICU patient gets heparin for DVT prophylaxis, not just COVID patients. And every patient with severe Covid gets steroids.
Post a link to a study that shows that full anticoagulation with apixaban, or anti platelet therapy with aspirin reduces mortality. That’s what I asked for.
And “I know people in the ER” isn’t data. You’re making it sound like ‘the experts’ are recommending people mix benzos with propofol. Or that you would rather patients with a breathing tube not get sedatives. Again… just asking you to post the guidelines that say ‘mix benzos with propofol for deep sedation in Covid patients’.
Did every serious Covid patient get Heparins? You sure? You want to stand by that? Has anyone actually done a study on Apixiban PLUS Heparins PLUS aspirin PLUS corticosteroids versus mortality? I sincerely doubt it. So, you would rather doctors not practice ANY art of medicine to prevent death before the data was complete? You sound like 2600bro.
Yes, they got corticosteroids, this is true, I can’t argue that. It, along with Remdesivir (even some 15-20 days into the disease!) was standard 2020 therapy.
Hospitals have some discretion in terms of what guidelines they want to follow. It’s not totally cut and dry but the basics are there. Are you denying that these protocols were actually used?
Yes and it was a stupid choice to remain unvaccinated and cost many people their lives.
Remember - You’re responding to Covidicy who maintains that vaccination wasn’t necessary since Omicron conferred immunity.
So you think that these people who had the chance to be vaccinated prior to Omicron, but chose not to, would somehow magically be conferred immunity without the Omicron surge?
No I think many of them took a stupid risk and now have subpar immunity and should still get vaccinated.
I think we are sane enough to differentiate that the ends here - everyone having antigen exposure - is not equivalent to saying the value of the route taken is path independent.
I asked for data or expert recommendations. As in “antithrombotics were not used in COVID patients because Fauci/FDA/CDC said not to, and here’s a link showing that COVID patients were dying of blood clots because drs were following the guidelines”. Every ICU patient gets heparin for DVT prophylaxis, not just COVID patients. And every patient with severe Covid gets steroids.
Post a link to a study that shows that full anticoagulation with apixaban, or anti platelet therapy with aspirin reduces mortality. That’s what I asked for.
And “I know people in the ER” isn’t data. You’re making it sound like ‘the experts’ are recommending people mix benzos with propofol. Or that you would rather patients with a breathing tube not get sedatives. Again… just asking you to post the guidelines that say ‘mix benzos with propofol for deep sedation in Covid patients’.
Did every serious Covid patient get Heparins? You sure? You want to stand by that? Has anyone actually done a study on Apixiban PLUS Heparins PLUS aspirin PLUS corticosteroids versus mortality? I sincerely doubt it. So, you would rather doctors not practice ANY art of medicine to prevent death before the data was complete? You sound like 2600bro.
Yes, they got corticosteroids, this is true, I can’t argue that. It, along with Remdesivir (even some 15-20 days into the disease!) was standard 2020 therapy.
Hospitals have some discretion in terms of what guidelines they want to follow. It’s not totally cut and dry but the basics are there. Are you denying that these protocols were actually used?
It is common medical knowledge that Midazolam and propofol are used together for heavy sedation. Don’t you work in a hospital? You would know this. But, do a simple google search and you will get your answer. I have ER friends who corroborated this protocol, particularly the benzodiazepine and propofol mix.
My autocorrect doesn’t like Midazolam for some odd reason.
I asked for data or expert recommendations. As in “antithrombotics were not used in COVID patients because Fauci/FDA/CDC said not to, and here’s a link showing that COVID patients were dying of blood clots because drs were following the guidelines”. Every ICU patient gets heparin for DVT prophylaxis, not just COVID patients. And every patient with severe Covid gets steroids.
Post a link to a study that shows that full anticoagulation with apixaban, or anti platelet therapy with aspirin reduces mortality. That’s what I asked for.
And “I know people in the ER” isn’t data. You’re making it sound like ‘the experts’ are recommending people mix benzos with propofol. Or that you would rather patients with a breathing tube not get sedatives. Again… just asking you to post the guidelines that say ‘mix benzos with propofol for deep sedation in Covid patients’.
He found a protocol that recommends measured sedation based on what’s required to ventilation tolerance. Wow! Shocking!
I posted the Remdesivir COVID clinical trial adverse event reporting 3 or 4 pages. None of the risks you claim were present. Why? Jumping through a lot of hoops to deny that COVID killed people.
Do you think Remdesivir was indicated after the viral replication cycle was complete (day 7)? Or contraindicated? Was it indicated on like day 14 during the massive inflammatory, coagulapathic pathophysiology? I’m being serious.
Did Midazolam and propofol kill any very sick, vented patients? Any? Was there any iatrogenesis whatsoever, even though the official data will never admit this?
You didn’t answer 2600bro, as per usual. Nor are you a doctor. Or even an expert. You have a BS (maybe MS) in biochem or chem & work in a lab, probably for a pharma company. You are a made man.
