LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

Kim,

Where was Fred in his training? Sounds to me like well into the speed phase.

Now was it 50m hard, 50m float or was there very little change of pace?

Was this w/o for Fred because he didn't have basic speed? And so would a runner with excellent basic speed not need to do this one quite so hard?

Kim wrote: He finished the workout literally on his knees and said he had never been so tired after a workout in his life. Arthur then said "Good stuff, Thats how you run them !".

Geez, now I know I was running the 50 sprint/50 floats wrong (too easy on the "floats"). Problem is, now I might be afraid to start running them "right"!!

Sorry Team some mixed messages there.

Fred was right into the final stages of his speed phase and getting ready to race when he did those workouts.(Beginning of the last month of work on the "old" Lydiard 3 month schedules (From "Run to the Top").

Doing it this hard was not because he had little basic speed.

(That was a side issue)

The idea is to sprint the 50 then "float' the next 50. Don't back off and jog.

It's like having a car in top gear and then putting it into overdrive so you maintain some speed but are not putting in the same effort (ie foot on the gas).

John Walker would run that workout in 8:40 as would Rod Dixon, so you can see how quickly it has to be done.

Fred mentioned how quickly he ran his but I cannot remember details. But is was not too far off his best 2 mile time.

If you relate that Walker ran a 2 miles in 8:20 in a race and that workout in 8;40 it gives you an idea.

BTW : Arthur would not necessarily have everyone run that workout as 2 miles. He may have some athletes run half that amount. It is very Anaerobic , as Arthur said it puts the knife edge on the Anaerobic capacity.

Speaking of anaerobic work, I just re-read a passage about the danger of doing too much anaerobic training for too long in Ron Daws' "Running Your Best" that seemed relevant here. It seems that many (myself included) have had trouble understanding the limits of anaerobic work, and Lydiard's explanations aren't always crystal clear to me.

Daws-"I need to mention one of the physiological problems of scheduling hard anaerobic workouts for prolonged periods. Because lactic acid is produced, the blood pH is progressively lowered during these

workouts. In fact, one of the goals is to learn to run with lactic

acid. That's what the final stages of races are all about. On recovery days the blood pH returns to near normal (between 7.46 and 7.48) and then one to three days later you lower it again. However, eventually-especially if racing is added to hard interval training-there is a great risk that the blood

pH may not return to normal. When that happens, it can upset your ability to get nutrients out of food, upset the central nervous system, and manifest itself in loss of performance and interest in running. In

the end, excessive anaerobic training pulls down your VO2 max, and you can't even run the slow stuff very well. It is what many runners call going stale."

Oddly, I have the same book (Ron Daws "Running Your Best") and had read the same section a bit ago. (Although his book "Self Made Olympian" is a bit more fun as a read, "Running Your Best" is more chock full of details.)

I've always enjoyed reading Daws, because I think his experiences and frustrations parallel my own -- although Daws was a MUCH better and more dedicated runner than I will ever be (as are you, Mike Salkowski). But I think Daws and Lydiard are correct about the effect of too much anaerobic work for too long, though I think it varies a lot between individual whether the point of limited returns is at 5 weeks or all the way out there near 12. But I always worry a little bit when Lydiard or Daws bring in these physiologic arguements; I would need a true physiologist with some data before I could necessarily sign off on where the pH values are going and whether it truly drags down VO2max. But regardless of whether the physiology is precise, I believe it remains good coaching advice, and that was always Lydiard's expertise and strength.

Hey fellas,

Just finished reading the '62 version of Run to the Top. I was lucky enough for my uncle to give me all his 'old, worn out running books' (included: run to the top, Run for your life, Snells Bio, Murrays Bio...these are like gold now!). Anyways just a couple of questions - Did Lydiards guys do 100mile/week on once a days...and what would Arthur recommend - once a days or jut fit it in as best you can? Cause I read about Murray and Peter running to work , would that have been easy running on top of the 100miles or what?

Also he mentions saline drinks?? Sort of curious as to what they were...sounds like a nasty drink with a lot of salt?

Cheers guys

Daniels, who wants to be coached by a skeleton

Lydiard advocated 100 miles a week in singles with this as an example:

M-10 1/2 effort

T-15 1/4 effort

W-10 1/2 effort

T-18 1/4 effort

F-10 3/4 effort

S-15 1/4 effort

S-22 1/4 effort

IN ADDITION he said it was good to add in some easy jogging in the morning, up to half an hour.

Alan

Sweet. Cheers for that Alan

One thing you have to remember, however, is that it is the best possible ideal situation. Snell couldn't quite handle 100-mile-a-week-with-one-session-a-day training plus morning jog. He said he even counted a "run" to get outside to get milk and only once did he ever completed 10 weeks of 100-miles week. The more the better; but within reason. As Kim S has been telling us over and over that it's not cast in the stone; do-it-that-way-or-die situation. The more the better. Do morning jog; that would help. But don't get preoccupied with 100 miles a week plus morning jog and climb up to 150 miles a week and get injured or all the runs become soooooooooo slow that you miss out effort part of it. It's gotta be all in balance.

There's not one answer to this. In later years, Arthur always said they ran 100 in one session and did "supplemental jogging" that took the distance higher.

Barry Magee told me that when he started with Arthur he did 100s in one session and was good but not quite at world class. Then he added a short second session which brought his totals to 120-130 and that did the trick. Peter Snell actually gets irritated when he sees the stories from Arthur about the 100 coming in one sessions and the second session bringing the totals higher. Peter said that when he ran 100 miles in a week he was counting every step. Then you had guys like Richard Tayler who'd get to 150-160, or Jeff Julian who had no real upper limit. He'd do 2,000 miles in his ten week build up.

Can't recall anything about drinks. I recall Arthur mentioning that they'd stop and eat oranges.

Man, just when you thought it's safe to visit letsrun message board...

In regards to saline drink; you have to realize that when Arthur wrote that book (Run to the Top), they didn't have Gaterade or Excel or Accelerade or whatever. They didn't have coolmax, they didn't have PowerBar or GU. Tinman commented somewhere that "not everything Lydiard had said is true or correct." That's absolutely right. With the Lydiard Foundation even, we don't have any intention of glorify everything Arthur has done or said and blindly worship them. There are things that need to be looked into and corrected or at least "explained" more deeply. Saline drink, in Run to the Top, I believe he simply referred to as salt water. When he ran a lot, he got thursty. That much was true--no contest. Then he said he tried to take some salt and his thurst eased at better rate. So in the old books, he suggested to take salt. When I got to know him for the first time in the 80s, he's already at the stage that ABSOLUTELY no extra salt. "You get enough salt from various sources throughout the day anyways," he said. And said that "excess" salt would create imbalance with potasium, magnesium and calcium. So with certain things he definitely changed his opinion about. Saline drink, it seems, sounds like one of them. I've noticed myself that, if I drink plain water, my stomach gets a bit upset. If it contains sugar, it upsets even more. If it has some salty taste to it, it settles down in my stomach better. We hardly ever use salt at our dinner table (only at breakfast...just kidding!). I remember Ray Puckett was so adamant about NOT using salt. Then I caught him sprinkling salt on boiled egg. "You've got to have some salt with egg!" he said... Everything has to be in moderation. Listen to your body. Don't just follow something someone said simply because he/she said it.

Lydiard!

Because I read his book.

Just joking, but yes Lydiard, because it's simple. Not easy, but simple.

Pele, the greatest international scoring machine in soccer (football) the world has ever seen, was interviewed for a documentary once. - He kept things simple and visualized the simplest form of stuff.

When asked what ran through his mind when he received a pass to his foot, he said. "I'd look up and head for the shortest route to the goal".

Gretzky, greatest ice hockey player ever, greatest scorer and point getter ever, The Pele of Hockey. He has a couple of famous quotes, he originally quipped. One is: "For every shot you don't take, you don't score".

This from a guy that people thought might be psychic...or something gifted like.

Gotta like that simple stuff.

Nobby,

Dont worry mate i wasnt going to be filling up my water bottle with salt anytime soon! Was just curious really.

I found it interesting to see that although there were a few things that were outdated most of the info in run to the top is applicable to today. Just reading it has inspired me into thinking i might do 100miles a week next year in base seeing itll be my first year senior.

I recall that Rod Dixon talked about racing in Europe and unable to run a certain time he was shooting for. He returned to NZ and his brother, John, advised him to run some sprint-floats - a 2 miler as I recall. Anway, Rod claimed it was the cure for getting him to run that extra bit faster in the race and run with great strength.

Simon, Bill Baillie is a really good source of info as to the "hows and whys" of "back in the day" and what the guys did, But has a good grip on what could suit an athlete.

I did heaps of running with him and learned as much just being in his company. He loves to talk !!.

See if you can get in touch with him and ask to discuss running with him. He is like Arthur in that respect, he gives of himself for the cause.

Cheers Mate : Kim

Nobby,

Lydiard's 50m x X for _______ athlete, when AL observed it was needed, sounds a little like something out of Emile Zatopek's regimen.

Did Arthur study other coach's and runners much? Or was EVERYTHING based on his own self experimentation and subsequent experience from coaching?

Dr. E:

I'm glad to see your keen interest continues.

Arthur was constantly learning...even in his twilight. He was "outspeakingly" admtting he learnt 50/50 from Igloi; he hoped to learn more from Cerutty (though he said Cerutty was the one who was avoiding him); he was one of the first Westerners to get into the core of Eastern block regime (East German and Russian) and exchange ideas... Anybody who ever hosted Arthur would tell you that he would learn any smallest thing from high school coaches with very keen interest. And he didn't have ego to tell the rest of the world that he came up with that idea (I think there were some screwy comments in his biography on different topics and I don't quite understand though...). This is not about running but one of the lasting images of him is when I went to visit him, he was watching this nature show with sparkling eyes. It was something to do with swan or some kind of bird, I can't remember. "Quite fascinating, isn't it?" he kept saying. He loved to learn new things; on and off running. One of his continuing dreams was to conduct international coaching seminar where athletes and coaches can learn from one another. And we intend to keep that dream as well.

By the way, Dr. E; I didn't qutie get what you meant by "Zatopek regimen with 50/50... What do you mean?