Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

The part I emphasized is not his view, something he writes about in his book, this very thread and podcasts.

I have the book, read the whole thread and listened to all his podcasts. I’m a big fan of the training and still think this method is, at its core, simple. 3 sub-t sessions under control and the rest really easy.

And still you wrote: We’ve reached a simple training method because that is all we needed.

I think you missed some nuances here. I’m a fan as well, btw.

Which part of that do you disagree with? (Maybe I have confused matters)

because that is all we needed

The point I was trying to make is that some of us have wasted years overcomplicating training and we just needed something as simple as this…and patience!

I altered the typical version of the norwegian approach, and tuned it to about 85 running miles per week, with racing focus on 5k-10k, and have seen significant success.

Monday (~20 mi):

AM: 2mi wu + 4x3k @3:35-3:40 (3 min jog) +1.25mi cd (grass, dirt or other technical terrain)

PM: 1mi wu + 10x1k @ 3:08-3:10 (60s full rest) + 1mi cd (track)

Tuesday:

AM: 8mi easy + 4 strides

PM: 30 min XT

Wednesday:

AM: 8mi easy + 4 strides
PM: 30 min XT

Thursday (~19 mi):

AM: 1.5mi wu + 6x2k @3:30-3:35 (2 min jog) + 1.5mi cd (grass, dirt or other technical terrain)

PM: 1mi wu + 20x400m @70-72 (30s full rest) +1.5mi cd (track)

Friday:

AM: 8mi easy + 4 strides
PM: 30 min XT

Sat: 15 mi easy (gravel)

Key notes:

• Two sessions rather than three - Have found that I recover better with two days in between workout days, not because I am above threshold effort, but the sheer volume requires two days to recover from.
• Surface notations - Taking a nod from the Ethiopians, I have found that doing the volume-heavy morning threshold sessions on a cross-country loop or other technical surface and the long run on gravel provides muscular benefits in the lower leg muscles (gastrocnemius, soleus, and Achilles tendon), improves running economy, and decreases jarring impact upon the knee, instead strengthening the stabilizer muscles. This incorporation is roughly 35% of total weekly volume being done on a softer surface than asphalt or concrete.
• Absence of hill-work - "The intention of hill work in the Norwegian approach is to maintain high-end speed and neuromuscular turnover," according to Bakken, as short bursts of speed helps prevent the neuromuscular system from becoming too attuned to a single, moderate pace, or threshold effort. However, strides can incorporate this same stimulus, without the spike in lactate and soreness that comes the next day with hill repeats.
• Incorporation of XT - The primary proponent of the Norwegian method being volume, the incorporation of greater aerobic stimulus is therefore positive, but comes at the cost of injury. Arc trainer, which shares the most similiarities of any machine to traditional running, can provide similar aerobic stimulus at the Zone 1 level without any mechanical cost.

This is a biweekly system, with alternate evening workouts, but as this post is already long, I can provide the full system in another post if there are further questions.

Same here, he makes it sounds great and so simple, but religiously doing isometrics or eccentrics never made much headway for me. Only intensity control and being super conservative in building load has helped me keep my Achilles issues at bay.

Also fully agree. I had Achilles tendinopathy and went full-Barr with frequent isometrics. Did not work for about 2 months. Saw a physio who got me on 2x week, spaced away from (hardest) running. Got better over about 4 weeks. Baar’s ideas are better in vitro vs in vivo.

Someone a few pages back mentioned frequent eccentrics as gold standard. Not true based my reading and physio feedback. Heavy slow resistance training 2-3 per week with sensible load management and movement progressions (ie for Achilles step one double leg logos) would I think be much more the current “best practice” thinking.

The climbing stuff probably works not cos of tendon majic more because…. they got their hand CTL higher than previously

I may have been the one promoting isometrics for achilles a few pages back! To clarify, my problems are insertional, where the tendon connects to my heel bone. Isometrics and shoes with a soft/flexible heel and/or no heel counter have helped a lot with this! If someone could make a functional running clog, I'd probably buy it, ha! To your point, heavy resistance training with emphasis on the eccentric portion is likely better for mid portion achilles problems.

I definitely do SL dumbell calf raises as well as some light plyos, but isometrics have still provided the best relief for me.

Probably won't get much interest on this thread because folks are very protective of vanilla NSM for fair reason... but this seems to have some similarities to what I have seen on Marco Langon's (Villanova) strava at least for preseason training. The second double T day gets swapped for more race specific work in season or a race.

Based on those interval splits, I'd guess your capable of low 30's or under for 10k?

How long have you followed this structure and what improvements have you seen?

Yes. This method offers a lot. But humans are gonna human. You’ll still find plenty of people overcomplicating this, getting impatient, and then throwing up their hands and claiming that it just doesn’t work for them.

This is great but the scope of this thread is basically for people who don't have time/can't double threshold

I fully agree with this. Straight up single leg, weighted deficit calf raises with light balance support for three sets of five with three seconds up and three seconds down twice a week got me to the point where I could do like light plyometric work like pogos. High repetitions and eccentric did not work only as well.

As a long-time sufferer of Achilles issues, doing calf raises with a bent knee to target the soleus a been key. I know lots of people advocate for eccentrics, and I try to go slow there. But challenging myself on the concentric portion has been good too.

When I do hard, long races, my right soleus and left quad / hip flexor get sore. I suspect this is due to some older injuries (ankle sprain, shoulder dislocation in my youth) creating an asymmetric running stride where not everything is working the same.

I try to work on the problem areas which I believe will give me more symmetry.

But strengthening my right soleus has taken a LOT of strain off my right Achilles injury. This is generally mid-portion injury for me.

Sorry for the double post.

It is so amusing how the above poster advocated for straight knee. I think everybody is different, but you have the highest chance of recovery if you mix up all these different variations (isometric, bent knee, straight knee, focusing on eccentric vs concentric). This, IMHO, allows the highest chance of your tendons getting the correct stimulation and escaping the tendinopathy where it refuses to heal.

Personally, I found rapid improvement once I started incorporating bent knee work in addition to the straight knee.

I still have to be mindful about my shoes, though. Nothing with a hard back, probably ever.

Muscle tone? Too fancy.

LFS is best measure of fatigue going.

It's a brilliant metric. Trying to push it in other communities myself. One of the few numbers that goes up as you age ;-)

Sorry, that was poor language use on my part

When I said straight up, what I meant was a standard calf raise, as opposed to an eccentric, and yes, I certainly do agree on doing bent knee as well as straight knee, in the issue with the shoes is real too. I have gotten quite particular about the heel cuffs of shoes I wear when I am not running.

i’m not a particular fan of eccentrics. Part of that is because the advantage seems to be due to the ability to load happier, but if I load heavier than I can do concentrics, I was likely to shake and that tended to aggravate my Achilles. I also think that once you’re able to do the standard calf raises, the isometrics have limited value