Sunday Mail Has More Details on Paula's Blood Values and Off Scores + News She'll Put up £1m for an MRI lie detector

Cleans wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Apparently, from the media coverage, Paula had depleted her iron stores.

Many women seem to have this problem of iron deficiency.

I'm not sure if anemia is the right word, as the reports never talk about low red blood cell counts.

Where's the blood doctor when you need him?

Pretty sure Paula herself refers to it as 'congenital anemia' in an old interview, 2005 IIRC.

I have looked into this very briefly and from what I understand she self diagnosed her anemia based off her Hb levels. Of course Hb is always low in trained athletes as plasma volume increases in response to endurance training. Naturally you get hemodilution that can appear like anemia but is anything but, I'm sure her 'doctor' took a precautionary approach and looked at other markers of anemia. The ferritin levels are far more important in that regard but I can find no mention of them.

It's strange that she would have such low Hb levels (12 is very low, I quietly wonder if she transfused a bag of saline prior to testing to dilute out other PEDs or blood markers, cyclists were doing this all the time) but it is incredibly unusual for a trained female endurance athlete to have such high values under any conditions other than severe dehydration, EPO use or blood transfusion. The cross-country skiers rjm33 mentioned must be taken with a pinch of salt considering the level of PED abuse in that sport.

I personally believe she used EPO, hence triggering the OFF-model; and blood transfusions and saline to manipulate blood values. I imagine there was a lot more going on with 'healing Hans', probably cortisone for recovery but that's all just speculation.

We have a winner here! Where's there's smoke, there's fire! People have to keep in mind she had been working with « Healing Hans » for so long... just like Bolt, many star soccer players and so many other elite arthletes!From what I know, Healing Hans have many things in common wirth the likes of Conconi, Ferrari, Rosa, Francis, and so on... Shady practices that attracts the best athletes in the world... Tell me why Bolt would fly to Europe to see this guy, who has a questionable reputation regarding ethics and sports scandals, when he could get treatment from some of the best doctors in the world after a very short flight to the USA???A very recent article about Healing Hans' : http://europe.newsweek.com/bastian-schweinsteiger-manchester-united-hans-muller-wohlfahrt-440395Someone has to to come clean and say the truth about this!

So runners, footballers, other sportsmen openly, frequently go to a doctor who is open about the unusual treatments that he offers and whom (as far as I can see from the internet) has never been associated with any form of doping done at his hands and that somehow turns the relationship into a dodgy one?

Personally I wouldn't let my kids near this guy with a bargepole as I don't want hen's crown or goats blood pumping into them. That doesn't mean a) that it doesn't work or b) that it isn't legitimate for sportspeople to seek out unusual rememdies.

Kenyans were openly working with Rosa, so did Lance with Ferrari...

Many athletes openly associate with Charlie Francis, Mark Block, etc...

Fuentes was also openly fraquented by a myriad of elite athletes.... before Operation Puerto revealed what we know now!

Plan B Saugy still run the Lausanne lab....

And so on!

Open your eyes! It's not because it's in the media thjat it's not dodgy!

If someone accepts to get treated with subsatnces or treatments not reviewd by the peers or banned in many countries, it tells a lot about the mentality and the approach of certain athletes regarding doping (Paula falls in this category!). Combine this with the facts exposed by rjm33 and many others in this thread and you'll begin to see the truth!

Again, don't get me wrong. I know what anemia means, thanks, but I'm only wondering if the reporters, or even the athletes themselves, are confused, because they talk about iron, and not so much about red blood cells. I was looking exactly for statements along the lines that she "... probably refers just to a tendency to common iron-deficiency anemia, which is not treated with blood transfusions, but with iron", because it sounded to me that Paula was suffering from low iron, and not low red blood cells, based on the few newspaper clips I found. This should be clear before saying thing like "only transfusions" can help.If blood bags from Dr. Fuentes are unambiguously linked to Paula, that will be new information that will certainly reshape my opinion.

rjm33 wrote:

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Rekrunner doesn't even seem to understand what anemia even means!!!!

...

Paula's reference to anemia inheritance from her mother probably refers just to a tendency to common iron-deficiency anemia, which is not treated with blood transfusions, but with iron.

...

...You could show rekrunner a bag of blood from the freezer of Dr. Fuentes with the initials P.R. on it................and rekrunner will say that the initials P.R. probably belong to Paul Rodgers!!! ...

Bingo.

So there some spin to make it go away, but the spin leads to new revelations and questions.

Oh what a tangled web we weave .........

Autologous madness wrote:

If someone accepts to get treated with substances or treatments not reviewed by the peers or banned in many countries, it tells a lot about the mentality and the approach of certain athletes regarding doping (Paula falls in this category!).

On more than one occasion, Paula has got 'injured' very shortly before a major race and paid a visit to Healing Hans. London 2012 and the London Marathon 2015 are two instances, and I haven't even googled that hard.

There are so many red flags around Paula, that it's just hard to believe she is as cleans and innocents as she professes to be. Ans it's rum that the IAAF have taken her in-house. Says a lot about how Lord Sepp Coe likes to turn a blind eye.

......I see that you have changed the spelling of your name ..Autologous madness...well done!......It is one of my favorite names here at LRC.

You and other readers may want to read the "Most Kenyan ABP testing is with advance notice" thread which was recent. In it, my posts were not DELETED by the moderators this time!..

I talked about Dr. Conconi, etc. and also was able to take all of Renato Canova's ideas about the physiology of KENYANS BORN, LIVING, AND DOING HIGH LEVEL ELITE TRAINING AT ALTITUDE being a separate species of human being (I missed the newsflash in the science journals again!)....so ANY STUDY by the thousands of PHDs and doctors published in the thousands of physiology journals and medical journals at the National Library of Medicine and all medical physiology textbooks are INVALID, AS ALL OF THEM SIMPLY DO NOT APPLY in this newly discovered species of human because ALL of the studies have been done on NORMAL, PUNY, REGULAR HUMAN BEINGS!.... All of the studies are thus wrong!...

......Does this type of argument sound familiar to the themes used by rekrunner and Jon Orange???..........It does to me!!!..........

Renato also seems to make the claim that any 8 year old Kenyan can train and run a sub 2:40 marathon!!.....Wow!....They really must be different!...let's see all these 8 year old Kenyan 2:40 marathoners rewrite the age-group world records!...

.....Rekrunner decided to TROLL me again on that thread and you can see how that turned out for him!..

Renato also made a statement previously that Alex Schwazer, the Italian 50K racewalk Olympic gold medalist in 2008 was clean when he won the gold in 2008.... but came down with ....just like Rita Jeptoo did...a case of WEAK MIND disease just before the 2012 Olympics when he tested positive for EPO, which he then admitted to buying in Turkey. Renato told us the weak mind disease onset was just in 2012 and not earlier.

However, I pointed out a French newspaper article from an old thread on EPO use in mid-distance runners... which had the link to the article...and in the article there are excerpts of emails going back to at least 2010 or even earlier between Alex Schwazer and.....................Dr. Michele Ferrari (Lance Armstrong's famous doctor!!)......so it looks to me as if the onset of his weak mind disease may have actually been much earlier than the time of onset of his weak mind disease that Renato was telling everyone!......I guess it may have just gone undetected and was not diagnosed earlier!!!

.....It is a small world, isn't it? .......It is just another coincidence!!!.......I am sure that Alex and Dr. Ferrari were just exchanging pasta recipes.......because I have heard that Dr. Michele Ferrari has a REALLY GOOD pasta RECIPE!.....(actually the email excerpts show that they were just having a talk about EPO use!).......................

......................Whoops!!!........................

.......Renato has become very quiet on that thread after I showed that all his statements about physiology, Kenyans, EPO, and Alex Schwazer are nonsense....

....and Renato also stated that Dr. Conconi (go check his Wiki page!) was actually a MINOR figure in Italy.... and that nobody paid much attention to Dr. Conconi (except winners of the Tour of France like Miguel Indurain, Stephen Roche, and Marco Pantani)!!!

.....Marco Pantani had a documented hematocrit of over 60% at one race and was later found dead in an Italian hotel room.....one day you are the winner!.....another day you are dead!!......like the 18 dead Dutch and Belgian riders in the years 1987 to 1990! ( see NY Times-May 19,1991 for the story).......

......Renato Canova's nonsense stories were turned to DUST...

...........in just 2 pages of thread!......much quicker than this 65 page thread with rekrunner!.......I hope you will enjoy reading it!.........Hey, this is fun!!!........

.............Thank you.....Autologous madness ...for your comments......and for your good humor!.....on this long and exhausting thread!.......

..............GO AUTOLOGOUS MADNESS!!!.......................

GO RJM33!!!

rjm33 wrote:

..............GO AUTOLOGOUS MADNESS!!!.......................

Renato is a joke, as well as rekrunner!

It's one flew over the cuckoo's nest all over again with these two delusional and myopic know-it-all nitwits!

They don't know the history of the sports regarding doping and can't deal with facts. Truth hurts!

Let's keep this thread alive!

rjm33 wrote:

I have never seen hemoglobin readings of above 15.0g/dl in any normal female or normal female athlete EVER, in over 6,000 readings.....

Paula and the Kenyans are not normal. They are undiscovered super humans..

Rekrunner needs to get Ed Coyle to postulate some extraordinary human variation that is unique to Paula. It worked great with Armstrong.

.....actually I think Renato does know the history....and he also posted some normal looking hemoglobin levels from some second-tier Chinese females from the last few years who ran like 32 min for 10k in his arguments!.....

......Hey Renato!..........We all want to see the hemoglobin and hematocrit blood test results from 1993!!.... from Wang Junxia and the rest of the Chinese women's team!!!.........not second tier Chinese women from 2014!!!.......

....EPO was banned by the International Ski Federation in 1988 and by the IOC in 1990, so they were well aware of its use at that time....

.......and look at this paper published by Dr. F.Conconi published in 1988 on serum EPO levels in cross-country skiers in 1988..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3384528

.....and in 1988 Gelindo Bordin from Italy won the gold medal in the marathon at the 1988 Olympics and the 1990 Boston marathon. Renato has assured us that Gelindo had no contact with Dr. Conconi and did no transfusions or EPO and that Gelindo would not even take an aspirin for a headache (sound familiar?)...because of his incredible STRONG MIND!....a "wild' mentality!

.......and that Gelindo won the Olympic marathon with a hemoglobin level of about 12.9g/dl (sound familiar?) and a hematocrit of 39%!.......I of course asked Renato if these were the pre-race values before his blood transfusion...and that I would like to know the after-blood transfusion values!........

....Renato also assured us that even though Alberto Cova (10k Olympic gold medalist in 1984) did do blood transfusions.....and Salvatore Antibo (10k silver medalist in 1988, gold was won by a Moroccan!) also did blood transfusions before the year 1985, the year that blood transfusions were banned (but with no test for any detection)........but after that... Antibo stopped blood transfusions....because he found that just altitude training was more effective than blood transfusions!.....since according to Renato....just like EPO....only some people respond to blood transfusions....for other people ...transfusions or EPO will have no effect....or even decrease aerobic performance....

..........Renato will become famous if his discovery of the NEW HUMAN SPECIES OF ELITE KENYANS BORN, LIVING AND DOING SUPER-ELITE LEVEL TRAINING AT ALTITUDE....for whom normal, puny, regular human physiology SIMPLY DOES NOT APPLY AND IS INVALID!.....is really true!...so far I have not seen it mentioned in the science journals or National Geographic.....but I may have missed the groundbreaking announcement in anthropology journals........

........and fast forward to today ....with 0 sanctions so far by CONI of the 26 athletes with the missed doping tests.....with the plausible explanations that were used including: cell phone app problems(error/variation), email problems(error/variation) and faulty fax machines(error/variation)......

...........Hilarious!!!...........You can't make this stuff up!!!!.............

This looks like a slam dunk here for rjm33

Time to defrost the frozen samples and unlock the million dollars for the lie detector

rjm33 wrote:

....and to argue that Paula could achieve a level of dehydration that is 106% greater than the average or 48% more than the maximum increase found in 1 person in the study of men who ran for 2.5 to 3 hours at 22C =71.6F and lost 4% of their body weight (6 lbs for a 150lb. man), and showed plasma volume losses of up to 17.3%, indicating SEVERE DEHYDRATION......and that Paula achieved this unprecedented level of dehydration while simultaneously winning the World half-marathon championships by over a minute!....and did it in only 1 hour and 7 minutes of running......I'm sorry.... but I find this explanation (used by the IAAF and Dr. Plan B Saugy!) completely absurd!!!.......

Completely absurd, indeed. IAAF only used a qualitative analysis, a la the value doesn't count because it's influenced by dehydration. Looking at the actual numbers would be absolutely damning for Paula. The IAAF also discredited itself by claiming that the race was at 29 C...

You should add to your reasoning the fact the her data came from 60 - 90 minutes after the race, i.e. they were at least half way back to normal. So you need to double your 106%...

Going back to the ludicrous 16.2 g/dL, with normal ret-% in 2012, I'd suggest she should have been banned for that. This was after 2009! Then the IAAF should have used the 2003/5 values as corroborating evidence, as is allegedly standard, and disqualified her for everything since 2003.

I do wonder whether they showed her the yellow-red card, and forced her into early retirement in 2012, because she got caught doping. That would fit to what we know from IAAF, and also goes well with the lack of finished races by Paula after 2012. Her official retirement then came last year, right.

I pleaded for a little clarity a few pages back and to his credit rekrunner set out his stall. Sadly and considering so much of this thread is rjm33 putting forward extremely valuable work, he continues to post in the style of a 14yo. I request that you stop turning this into a intra-board mudslinging match and just present the facts, i've started to skim your posts they are too onerous to extract the facts from now and repetitive and it's frustrating because as I said before, your message is getting lost in a barrage of "GO PAULA, EPO CHEATS OUT!!!" style rhetoric that advances nothing. I can't imagine many new people are landing in this thread this late on and for the rest of us it's endless recycling of content in an ever more convoluted style.

I think there's a enough evidence to declare extreme suspicion. Looks like a case of couldn't beat them so joined them and interesting to see the testimonies of a few people that have stuck with the thread and formed an opinion, nearly all to the negative.

The very high Hb of 16.2 in 2012 with 0.77%reticulocytes converts to an OFF score of 109.35, which is actually below the altitude cutoff!! (around 111), which shows the large amount of margin to avoid false positives the OFF score system has built in.....so a really high Hemoglobin score of 16.2g/dl that I have never seen... gets a PASS on the test IF the altitude cutoff is used (and I reluctantly agreed), even though the Hb looks really suspicious!. This is why so many athletes like Paula like to ALWAYS be at altitude, with the use of an altitude tent excuse!

Also, Plasma rubbish is right about the rare, isolated 15.8 and 16.0 Hb values from the 2 female x-country skiers that were supposedly clean and training at altitude, which I used as a MAX value for altitude training... may be too generous a value.....as I think those values came from before the EPO test was developed!....and Paula was 16.2....still probably a NEVER BEFORE SEEN value in a female from just altitude training...so once again Paula is SUPERWOMAN!!!.......

Ross Tucker talks about blood doping detection with the OFF score and it is not that good, probably only detecting 50- 70% of true positives( I can't remember the actual numbers)....so to avoid any false positives the test loses sensitivity and will have lots of false negatives.

And everything can be manipulated : hemoglobin, hematocrit, and reticulocytes. I think there are two possibilities for the low 12.0 (or 12.8) prerace value (and look at the similarity to Renato's claims for Bordin with a 12.8 Hb and a 39% hematocrit for 1988 Olympic marathon gold)....hmmm......

One explanation is mentioned by Ashenden in the Kenyan ABP story and by Plasma rubbish, and me earlier is: the use of a saline IV to lower Hb (or HCT) values prerace and/or postrace, so her "true" Hb prerace might of been 13 or 14, and her true postrace Hb might have been 16.6 to 17.0!... just as Lance and the cyclists did to bring their 'true' 55 to 60% hematocrit scores down to 49% to get under the 50% cycling cutoff.

Another explanation for the low prerace value could be simply that Paula did not allow enough time after blood removal (to store for the later transfusion prerace) for her body to make new RBCs to come back up to normal before the race....as again...it takes some time.

Oh my!!!....I just thought of something!!!!....Paula's statements about a HISTORY OF ANEMIA could be used as ANOTHER EXPLANATION....for LOW HEMOGLOBIN LEVELS!!.......that might be seen prerace as in 2003...but also to EXPLAIN LOW HEMOGLOBIN VALUES THAT WOULD BE SEEN FOR A WHILE AFTER HER BLOOD IS REMOVED IN THE OFF SEASON FOR STORAGE FOR THE FUTURE TRANSFUSION!........hmmm convenient excuse for low hemoglobin levels in an OOC test or prerace. (but to take the other side....iron-deficiency anemia is very common in females).

Also...the lower reticulocytes that can be seen with transfusions can be masked amazingly by........EPO!.....How? Take the EPO in the period leading up to the race which will boost both Hb and reticulocytes .....then go off the EPO in time to have a negative urine EPO test at the race but with still increased reticulocytes to mask the effect of the

transfusion!...Clever!!... but no indication Paula did this in 2003. Why not? Because again...EPO use will lead to high Hb both prerace and postrace. See how it all makes sense!

Ferrari, Fuentes and others were and still are way ahead of the testers!!!

I avoided talking about all these details....because it can then get very complex....I tried to make it as simple as I could.....by constantly bringing up what normal ranges are....because if readers don't understand what is normal range.....how can they possibly understand what is not normal!

rekrunner,

Are you sagarin? I compared your viewpoints and writing style and they are incredibly similar.

No.

Comparatively wrote:

rekrunner,

Are you sagarin? I compared your viewpoints and writing style and they are incredibly similar.