Most people who survive pitfz these days make tweaks to manage and control fatigue in a more manageable way. Last time I did it, I probably had to change so much pitfz himself would say it doesn't resemble his philosophy.
The absolute gold of NSM is the entire thing is built on the management of load with the time you have, so it's so easily adaptable across a broad range of runners.
It's genuinely changed how I think of things like this, as well as all year round fitness or deliberately choosing not to periodize.
Just eat a PB&J or banana, or whatever before you head out, if you really need it (or to train your gut to better absorb calories during a run). It's way healthier than a bunch of expensive sugar anyways. If you absolutely can't let go of eating during the run, bring a bar or gummies or something in your pocket.
Maybe. The intensity is undeniably quite high compared to NSM. But I actually had good results from Pfitz without getting run down by making a few schedule modifications (to 18/55-70) and carefully managing recovery (averaging a little over 8.5 hrs of sleep, almost never getting below 8). Some of the modifications were just “listen to your body” stuff and others were common-sense adjustments to do things like base certain runs more on time than on stipulated mileage (if a guy at 5:15 LT pace could run that 7 scheduled miles of LT, I’d adjust mine to 35-37 minutes instead of 7 miles; in a week with 11 and 15 mile midweek runs, I’d just go 105-110 min for the second). His long run and medium long paces are really dialed back, though. He cautions against letting pace speed up on those when you’re feeling good, and I took that to heart. I also didn’t follow the tune-up race plan as heavily.
Some of the principles I followed for adjustments were more explicit in “faster road Racing” than in “Advanced Marathoning,” although there’s still some good guidance throughout the earlier book. I think it also helped to have gone into that plan after having had a marathon cycle averaging almost 60 mpw and peaking near 70, a standard 4-5-week recovery/rebuild mileage post-race, and then 5 weeks around 52-60 mostly easy and general aerobic, with strides on 2 days, a moderate workout, and a long run around 2 hours or so. Ran a 5k to gauge fitness and freshness. So when I started the Pfitz cycle, I generally had pretty good fitness but was adequately refreshed, and I wasn’t trying to force significant mileage adaptation alongside absorbing that intensity (he cautions about that in earlier chapters in a way that the schedules may not fully reflect).
You could say, then, that I wasn’t really running a Pfitz plan, but nearly all adjustments I made to the cookie-cutter schedules were based on principles set forth in his books.
But then, I had a better result the next cycle after modifying Pfitz further to transfer some mid-week intensity to some faster work late in long runs 4 times over the cycle. Not sure if I would’ve raced as well if I’d just stayed as close to his schedules as I had the previous cycle.
So yeah, NSM is clearly a much more manageable intensity, but I think a lot of the standard older plans offered some context to help runners avoid getting overcooked, but that probably involved a lot of reading between the lines. It looks as though NSM is not only based on principles that are more lifestyle-friendly for the average hobbyjogger (faster or slower), but that the method seems to have better built-in guardrails that are also more visible or beneficial to runners.
Appreciate you! After reading this, I'll go back and re-read my Faster Road Racing just to get a refresher. While I am sticking with NSM for now posts like this are why this is the best running site online.
I feel like people are confusing Pfitz and Daniels at times. Daniels has some weird stuff in his plans like back to back hard workout days and lots of running at R pace, even for a HM.
Pfitz on the other hand is pretty sparse on workouts, for him it is all about the mileage, and it can be mentally tough at times to run a mid week long run or whatever. But if you pick a mileage within your range Pfitz should not destroy you.
Pitfz to me is way harder than Daniels for a marathon, which is all I have used it for. The GA midweek runs on already tired legs are brutal. There was just no time to recover. This is the main problem, the intensity isn't controlled very well. Like someone else added, you can fix it and move tons of stuff around but then you are moving away from pitfz ideas, i.e doing MLR mideeek at a good pace on already tired legs on purpose. There's a place for this maybe now and again, but it's way too much, too often.
From memory it had me doing pretty heavy stuff still 10 weeks out. This is only 18/55, goodness knows what the next plan up is like. At one point I was doing 12 mile MLR and a 20 mile long run in the same week with MP segments and also a LT pure workout the day before. This was still over 2 months out. Then about 3 days later I'm doing 1200x5 at 5k pace, followed by another medium long run lol it's scary looking back.
Is that really hard? That's just the job if you want to run a good marathon. It'll put you in a spot to deal with the demands of a race. It's tried and tested. NSM I can see working for beginners who are slower but serious amateurs runners a pitfz plan is likely their gold standard, no?
I've been thinking about this a lot recently having read Brakkens book.
I'm a 3.45/14.20 5k runner. When I look back at my training over the last 10-15 years, its mostly vo2 max work or a max of 30 min 'tempo' sessions during the winter, where the early reps would be ran too hard. My 10k is outside 31 so my limiting factor was clearly endurance and I never really saw a significant year on year improvement of endurance over the years. Lots of peaks of fitness which would revolve around high intensity 15-3k sessions. The UK traditional club coaching view is to try to smash as many of these types of sessions as possible - (3-6k of vo2 max work and lots of sessions with 3-5 mins rest). Even now I see runners in my training groups smashing out reps at 3k pace off huge recovery and wondering why they aren't running faster than 15.15 or 31 mins. Theres a good bit from Wejo's 'why i sucked at college' blog which identifies this 'In college, the day after an easy day, I’d have a track workout often with some sort of ladder, say 4-6-4-2 or say 1600-1200-800-600-400-200. And looking at the workouts I see I could bang out the short intervals. Most college kids and high school kids can. What they lack is endurance.' It's easy to smash these sessions but they don't bring improvement in long term endurance. The Norwegian method is basically just a blueprint to training sustainably.
Is that really hard? That's just the job if you want to run a good marathon. It'll put you in a spot to deal with the demands of a race. It's tried and tested. NSM I can see working for beginners who are slower but serious amateurs runners a pitfz plan is likely their gold standard, no?
If you can survive 12/18 weeks of Pfitz then well done. Did the taper work? Are you actually recovered enough for the training to be absorbed?
People think they "survived" Pfitz because they lined up on race day. Even if they PR'd was this the best result?
So many hobby joggers dont have marathon PRs which match with 5k/10k. Many get worse as they get longer but still have good PRs. They will say "no one can hit the VDOT equalivent for the marathon" and it is because they are too concentrated on hard runs and workouts. There is simply no need to be running 8km at threshold on a tuesday, 18k MLR on the thursday and then 29k on a sunday, all at decent pace, 12 weeks out from the race. As Sirpoc himself said, this is getting you into a hole early and you never get out
I'm starting to rethink all this. I was probably pro pitfz and anti NSM for a marathon in particular, but it's hard to ignore experienced runners suddenly making improvements using the key principles sirpoc has paid out, even if they have run a dozen marathons before.
There just has to be something positive in all this that most other amateurs have been missing before and I guess it's the load and fatigue management hand in hand.
No need to fuel for an easy run or a standard sub t workout tbh. You're on your feet for 75 mins max, likely closer to 60, and will be absolutely fine as long as you have eaten properly beforehand.
No harm taking one on your long run, they might help a little bit there, it's really personal preference. A 90 ish minute easy run without fuel shouldn't wipe you out if you're fit enough.
Gels are a necessary evil, yes, if you're marathon training but they're rotten and quite expensive so I wouldn't bother unless I'm running for 80 mins or more at an intense pace, LT1 or above if we want to talk in physiological terms.
Similar to you at 5k and a smidge slower at 1500. Highly recommend both Bakken’s and James’ books. They made me realize I have always run too fast for “threshold” and missed the boat on maximizing my aerobic system. I would love to work toward Bakken’s double T but not sure if my body can handle that mileage anymore. But I can say I am responding very well to the singles approach after 4-5 weeks. I feel fitter and my heart rate is lower on both easy and sub T days. Hoping to find a 5k this month to check fitness.
Both James and Bakken seem weary about strides so I have omitted them for now which feels very weird, ha! But I have a lot of natural speed (I bet you do too with that 3:45), so I don’t think it will go anywhere even if untrained.
Many runners are simply too ambitious with their marathon plans. They may pick the 18/55 plan without ever having run a long run of 18 miles or 55 miles in a week. So the plan is an aspiration that may be beyond them. They are ramping up mileage, with intensity, without adequate recovery. Many start these plans after the festive break when they haven’t been doing much volume or consistent training. They are then playing catch up after only a few weeks, and probably running everything too hard.
With NSM, marathon training is being started after a long period of consistent training, and running 7 days per week. The base and building blocks are there to then start on the specifics of the marathon. NSM has importantly given the runner the understanding of, how easy is easy, how easy is threshold. If they need to take a day off, the runner will understand that this is a warning sign that they may be over reaching. The mindset that NSM has developed is very important, and often overlooked.
Appreciate you! After reading this, I'll go back and re-read my Faster Road Racing just to get a refresher. While I am sticking with NSM for now
That seems like the right call. Consistency — stacking quality week after week, month after month, year after year — is the path to results, and NSM is as strongly geared at that path as anything you’re likely to find.
Is that really hard? That's just the job if you want to run a good marathon. It'll put you in a spot to deal with the demands of a race. It's tried and tested. NSM I can see working for beginners who are slower
SirFOD would be a great name for the podcast on the weeks he's on
Im still sticking with "DANCAN the Musical" as the greatest handle on this thread thus far!
And apparently all our prayers will be answered next week! lol
Anyone have any suggestions for a 5k breakthrough? I've been trying to break 17 for a while via NSM. 4 months in and have gotten to 17:04 from 17:40. I feel like I probably lack speed and that's my block on going any faster.
Anyone have any suggestions for a 5k breakthrough? I've been trying to break 17 for a while via NSM. 4 months in and have gotten to 17:04 from 17:40. I feel like I probably lack speed and that's my block on going any faster.
id honestly say mostly 'stay the course' here and keep making incremental progress
the 45/15 stuff Bakken advocates is definitely an interesting angle, haven't tried it, but if you might want to be careful implementing too much of that work
another option would be to tweak a session on the shorter end.
Say you're doing 10x1k or 10x3:00, you definitely could add a little to the end of that if you really think leg speed is a problem with very likely not much risk. Lets say do 5x1k/5X3:00 and add 10x200 on the end with full rest.
Again, id be careful with the quality. Ive made the mistake many times of doing mostly threshold for a while, getting to a good platform and then thinking 'ok now i should add the quality to make the next logical jump' and just detonate the whole progress.
Bakkens comments on the transitional phase to 'peaking' has definitely been pretty smart both in YT interviews and on Reddit
Bottom line, stay conservative. It's very easy to overreach too quickly when you get motivated and completely wreck your metabolic profile and long term development for no reason other than the illusion that 'quality' work will translate in a predictable manner to performance
So many hobby joggers dont have marathon PRs which match with 5k/10k. Many get worse as they get longer but still have good PRs. They will say "no one can hit the VDOT equalivent for the marathon" and it is because they are too concentrated on hard runs and workouts. There is simply no need to be running 8km at threshold on a tuesday, 18k MLR on the thursday and then 29k on a sunday, all at decent pace, 12 weeks out from the race. As Sirpoc himself said, this is getting you into a hole early and you never get out
I was this person. Still am, at least until I run a half and full in the coming months with this method of training. 4:45 Mile and 1:27 half (Definetly not matching!). But I just told myself I wasn't "built for long distance". (Surprise surprise I was focused on LT2 work as my "aerobic work", running easy runs at 75-80% of max and doing hard VO2 and Economy sessions as referenced in JD's plan). After a first run through where I was overambitious with getting to 7h+ of NSM too soon, I've now slowly ramped up to 6h and feel stronger than ever. 20k in 6 weeks to see where I stand with the longer stuff, but I'm anticipating a big improvement just based on recent workouts alone. NSM saved me from the continuous cycle of burnout I kept putting myself through.
Anyone have any suggestions for a 5k breakthrough? I've been trying to break 17 for a while via NSM. 4 months in and have gotten to 17:04 from 17:40. I feel like I probably lack speed and that's my block on going any faster.
You need to get your head around the idea you lack speed. This has been the trap of all my training over what is now many, many years.
Once you park that you'll be all the better for it.
I spent years thinking this is what I lacked, yet all I needed to go much faster than ever was lots and lots of consistency and subthreshold. If you have already improved a decent amount on NSM in just 4 months, why are you in a rush? A 17 minute 5k runner can still prioritize almost every else over speed.
There's so many posts in the thread of people in the same position and the path of least resistance is probably still just plugging away. It's dirty work, but it does really work.
What are some indicators that your ST workouts are in the right ballpark, if you don't have lactate or HR monitor? RPE, breathing, manual HR - anything else?
Taking HR manually averages 88-90% MHR after the last rep and around 85% after the first rep.
I'm breathing purposefully by the end of the workout but almost never hard. If I get close to needing to breath faster than 3/3, it feels like I'm above LT2. I never get close to that VO2max rep feeling unless I've briefly gone way too fast for some reason. Sometimes I'll do 1-3 reps breathing 4/4.
ST days are usually RPE 4, sometimes 5, but RPE is subjective and everyone has their own scale. (Mine's about 5-6 for a 30min continuous ST run, 7-8 for VO2max reps, 10 only for running from a lion).
I'm slow (21:30ish), ST cadence around 172, and go around 1% faster than NSM book paces.
I guess all of that sounds about right but I'd like to hear of any other rules of thumb if anone has any.
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