Sunday Mail Has More Details on Paula's Blood Values and Off Scores + News She'll Put up £1m for an MRI lie detector

Given how closely Paula 'monitored' her blood levels I find it impossible that she could possibly become anaemic.... this is a woman who has championed Ostrich meat, wheatgrass juice, magnetic necklaces, Cockerels crest, Calfs blood, Emu oil.... amongst other things, someone who 'left no stone unturned' in her daily pursuit, that no doubt included daily blood testing.

Of course she also once said following the London Marathon "I have absolutely no objection to my test being released"

rekrunner wrote:

My posts in this thread are about one thing: is doping the ONLY plausible possibility?

So are you actually acknowledging that doping is a possibility? It always looked to me like you were looking (way too hard) for reasons why you thought Paula was clean. Maybe I've been misinterpreting you.

Surely doping is always a plausible possibility - there have been both world record holders and complete also-rans who have been caught doping, from (supposedly) countries with strong anti-doping regimes and from those countries with appalling records on anti-doping.

It's always possible and plausible whether its Paula, Bolt, Ben Johnson, Lance Armstrong, Bekele, or the guy who failed to make the European semi-finals in the 100m.

Maybe the ostriches were on EPO and it transferred into Paula's blood when she ate them. That would be legal, wouldn't it?

rjm33 is your real name George Malley, aka malmo?

You certainly aren't an expert in hematology. But you most definitely are an OCD troll.

How many other names are you posting under on this thread?

Jon Orange calling out a troll? The original Richmond and Zetland Letrsun nut, are you still training in Adidas Rom and measuring your kick against athletes five minutes up the road?

Give it a rest.

I'm not looking for reasons, but yes. Here I discussed the leaked data, and what scientists, like Ashenden, say about sources and magnitudes of errors between 2001-2008, and how that SHOULD reduce the certainty of any conclusions and why it is dangerous to give this partial data set to a largely unqualified and biased (either way) public, who would be staunchly resistant to considering anything less than 100% certainty (but rather, if there is still doubt, give all of the data PLUS external documentation to independent experts -- even Ashenden and Parisotto -- for a better determination).But I cannot honestly say the data is unreliable for you, while the errors are reliable for me. The existence of potentially large and undetected process errors doesn't mean she didn't also transfuse or micro-dose -- only that (IMO) doping is not a necessary explanation for the "suspicions".If the same blood data was post-2009, and collected post 2-hours, I would post in other threads.

The Scholar wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

My posts in this thread are about one thing: is doping the ONLY plausible possibility?

So are you actually acknowledging that doping is a possibility? It always looked to me like you were looking (way too hard) for reasons why you thought Paula was clean. Maybe I've been misinterpreting you.

Jon Orange wrote:

rjm33 is your real name George Malley, aka malmo?

You certainly aren't an expert in hematology. But you most definitely are an OCD troll.

How many other names are you posting under on this thread?

Not me, IDIOT. How many times to you have to ask?

It shouldn't be up to me to say what can be found in Google in 5 minutes. Her anemia is reportedly something that she inherited from her mother.Paula was "diagnosed" in January 1992 -- that is why she championed all those things, many of which are designed to keep her iron levels normal.From a 1994 article:"Following her discovery in January 1992 that she is anaemic ..."http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/athletics-thirsty-radcliffe-confirms-potential-1399131.htmlFor those wondering how Paula can know so much about her blood, it's not "daily blood testing", but I'm sure everyone will love this quote, again from 1994:"she now has her haemoglobin levels checked every three months".BTW, the "leaked blood data" are not doping test results.

come on! wrote:

Given how closely Paula 'monitored' her blood levels I find it impossible that she could possibly become anaemic.... this is a woman who has championed Ostrich meat, wheatgrass juice, magnetic necklaces, Cockerels crest, Calfs blood, Emu oil.... amongst other things, someone who 'left no stone unturned' in her daily pursuit, that no doubt included daily blood testing.

Of course she also once said following the London Marathon "I have absolutely no objection to my test being released"

Bobblehead will never produce the frozen samples.

Bobblehead lied about being willing to take a lie detector test.

Bobblehead is a doping cheater, and every honest person with a brain knows that.

rekrunner wrote:

For those wondering how Paula can know so much about her blood, it's not "daily blood testing", but I'm sure everyone will love this quote, again from 1994:

"she now has her haemoglobin levels checked every three months".

I think that's a fair shout. I hadn't considered that she might check regularly because of an inherited condition.

If I had a bit more knowledge, I would probably check to see how un-anemic some of her readings have been over the course of her career, but I know I probably don't need to as someone else on this thread will probably be doing that as I type!

On a separate note, and it's not really anything against Paula, but how common is it for testers to share information with athletes? IIRC, Paula mentioned in her biography (or possibly elsewhere) that the testers were sharing data with her. Is this normal/allowed?

If Paula had a genetic tendency towards anemia, that is her body was programmed to produce low numbers of red blood cells, manipulating her diet wouldn't override the genetics.

Only blood transfusions would help.

All the athletes get their own results, but it's not normal to make the results public. I don't see how you are anyone else can check.

The IAAF started freezing samples in 2005. They retested some of Paula's samples in 2012. They were negative. We discussed this some 25 pages ago.

Doping Bobblehead wrote:

Bobblehead will never produce the frozen samples.

...

Apparently, from the media coverage, Paula had depleted her iron stores.Many women seem to have this problem of iron deficiency.I'm not sure if anemia is the right word, as the reports never talk about low red blood cell counts.Where's the blood doctor when you need him?

fred wrote:

If Paula had a genetic tendency towards anemia, that is her body was programmed to produce low numbers of red blood cells, manipulating her diet wouldn't override the genetics.

Only blood transfusions would help.

So it starts out as anemia, and when that is questioned, it morphs into something else.

Like all the other stories since the beginning of this thread.

rekrunner wrote:

Apparently, from the media coverage, Paula had depleted her iron stores.

Many women seem to have this problem of iron deficiency.

I'm not sure if anemia is the right word, as the reports never talk about low red blood cell counts.

Where's the blood doctor when you need him?

fred wrote:

If Paula had a genetic tendency towards anemia, that is her body was programmed to produce low numbers of red blood cells, manipulating her diet wouldn't override the genetics.

Only blood transfusions would help.

Pretty sure Paula herself refers to it as 'congenital anemia' in an old interview, 2005 IIRC.

I am a doctor (and I am not a hematologist), but in the over 6,000 hemoglobin, hematocrit, and reticulocyte tests over 26 years which I have ordered and interpreted for normal, puny, regular human beings at 2160m(7100ft) altitude, including sub 2:30 female marathoners and sub 2:12 male marathoners.... I have never seen hemoglobin readings of above 15.0g/dl in any normal female or normal female athlete EVER, in over 6,000 readings.... but of course that doesn't matter... because Paula is Superwoman.... and any normal, puny, regular human scores DO NOT APPLY AND ARE INVALID ACCORDING TO REKRUNNER. ALL dehydration studies on normal, puny, regular human runners that are not in Paula's special category of Super-elite female runner (who else could even hope to be in Paula's very special category?) also are INVALID.

How many hemoglobin and reticulocyte values has rekrunner seen with his extensive science and math background?...... How many rekrunner?

Rekrunner doesn't even seem to understand what anemia even means!!!! Are you confused again rekrunner of the difference between hemoglobin and RBCs? I have never in my life seen anyone so arrogant... that tries to make absolutely absurd arguments with SO LITTLE KNOWLEDGE!!!

It is incredible to me.... that the less knowledge that someone has .....the more that they think they know!!!

Paula's reference to anemia inheritance from her mother probably refers just to a tendency to common iron-deficiency anemia, which is not treated with blood transfusions, but with iron. However, anemia (hemoglobin at below 12.0g/dl, even down to below 10.0g/dl in severe cases) takes weeks to months to correct, not 2 days!. Also, people with a tendency to anemia stay that way, even after treatment, so they will usually be in the lower end of normal range like 12.0 to 13.0g/dl (normal Hb range for a female is 12.0g/dl to 15.0g/dl and for males normal range is higher at 13.0 to 16.0g/dl). This is one reason of many why, in general, men are faster than women, since they have higher hemoglobin levels and therefore greater oxygen carrying capacity of their blood.

Paula had her hemoglobin go from a borderline anemic 12.0g/dl or 12.8g/dl to a WAY ABOVE NORMAL READING OF 15.6g/dl in 2 DAYS!!!...That 15.6g/dl score even just by itself (even without the massive increase in 2 days!) I HAVE NOT SEEN EVER IN A NORMAL FEMALE IN 6,000 BLOOD TESTS!!!

Paula then does it again in 2005!, with a big increase in only 1 day to 15.1g/dl, and she does it again in 2012!, with a really, really high score of 16.2g/dl in an OOC test in 2012 by itself, with no comparison values. In a literature search I was able to find evidence of RARE, isolated cases of two female cross-country skiers at altitude who achieved scores of 15.8 and 16.0g/dl, but SUPERWOMAN PAULA WITH A HISTORY OF ANEMIA POPS A 16.2g/dl!!!.........WOW!!!.....and I even gave her a pass on that test, because it was close enough to the 16.0g/dl to be possible.....but still very, very SUSPICIOUS!!!!

Now readers.............How likely do you think Paula's blood test results are???..........Think clearly for yourself......and make your own conclusions...

Of course......It does not matter what you or I think......because after I and other posters go into long and detailed scientific explanations to explain why rekrunner is WRONG AGAIN AND DOES NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT........

.......Rekrunner then responds with endless posts, and volume, and debate, and questioning of every detail of every study ever mentioned.........

.........and when it is finally shown that he is wrong again.......rekrunner says that it really does not matter... because the study that he just argued about in endless detail FOR HUNDREDS OF POSTS actually... once again... DOES NOT APPLY to Superwoman Paula and the study is once again INVALID!!!.....

...IF ALL THE STUDIES ARE INVALID THEN WHY DOES HE CONTINUE TO ARGUE ABOUT THEM IN ENDLESS DETAIL?

....and then you will notice that the subject changes .......and the endless process with rekrunner will repeat for eternity......

........Gosh, so Paula has had a history of anemia?... Well IT SURE LOOKS LIKE PAULA HAS FIXED HER ANEMIA FASTER AND BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE ON THE PLANET EVER HAS!!!. JUST LIKE PAULA CAN GET MORE DEHYDRATED THAN ANYBODY ELSE ON THE PLANET!!!

.......SO YOU CAN SEE THAT PAULA IS SIMPLY SUPERWOMAN!!!!...

.........AGAIN!........

...........AND IN MY OPINION... REKRUNNER IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL BS NONSENSE TROLL WHO SHOULD GO AWAY!!!!........BUT HE NEVER WILL!!

.........The reason I kept going was because I saw his REPEATED attempts at confusing people.... so that they could not see.... the OBVIOUS TRUTH about Paula and her AUTOLOGOUS BLOOD TRANSFUSION in 2003... which rekrunner will never accept!!!..or allow other people to accept!!.......

..........Guess what rekrunner????........YOU HAVE LOST AGAIN!!!!!....

..............HEY!....THIS IS FUN!!!.....I CAN GO FOREVER ALSO!!! ...I WILL NOT QUIT REKRUNNER!!!........I HAVE BEEN STUDYING PHYSIOLOGY AND MEDICINE FOR 30 YEARS REKRUNNER!!...I WILL BURY YOU AND YOUR NONSENSE ARGUMENTS IN DUST!!!.........JUST LIKE PAULA AND JUST LIKE RENATO CANOVA!!!! and I do not even bother wasting my time or energy with Jon Orange... who also THINKS LIKE YOU AND LIKE RENATO CANOVA that all physiology PHDs and doctors are wrong!....the other posters here at LRC can easily take care of Jon Orange!)

................and you will never win... because I will educate people so that they can easily see the REAL TRUTH FOR THEMSELVES!!!......

...You could show rekrunner a bag of blood from the freezer of Dr. Fuentes with the initials P.R. on it................and rekrunner will say that the initials P.R. probably belong to Paul Rodgers!!!.........see how it goes?.........

...........Rekrunner's and Paula's credibility ........

................have turned to dust...............

.................GO PAULA!!!!.....STOP REKRUNNER!!!............

I'm not trying to move any targets. I'm just wondering if newspaper reporters (or even Paula) are mixing things up, or if there is some official diagnosis.These UK newspapers use the word "anaemia", but then talk exclusively about iron deficiency, and managing it with iron rich foods, iron supplements, and avoiding foods that interfere with iron absorption. They don't talk about managing red blood cells.Similarly, the UK newspaper called Lisa Dobriskey's iron deficiency "severe anaemia". It looks like low iron is a common problem for women.You said "only transfusions" would help, and that "diet wouldn't ...". I'd be happy to see someone provide any reference that Paula, and any other female athletes have been treating their exercise aggravated anaemia, either legitimately or not, with blood transfusions.

fred wrote:

So it starts out as anemia, and when that is questioned, it morphs into something else.

Like all the other stories since the beginning of this thread.