Bakken and Sirpoc have come together on easy being 70% max. Norwegian Athletics recommend 60%-72% as their Zone 1 low intensity. If someone is having to walk, upping it to 72% isn’t going to make that much difference until they can stay under 70%.
The Norwegians regard zone 2 (72%-82%) as the junk miles range.
If I only have two days to workout a week, should I do the 2nd half of the long run at a steady effort to match the load, especially if I’m training for a half-marathon?
Bakken and Sirpoc have come together on easy being 70% max. Norwegian Athletics recommend 60%-72% as their Zone 1 low intensity. If someone is having to walk, upping it to 72% isn’t going to make that much difference until they can stay under 70%.
The Norwegians regard zone 2 (72%-82%) as the junk miles range.
I agree for the most part. I would add one factor. Under or a decent amount under 70% is really all you need for easy running, singles or doubles.
The spanner in the works here is 82%, if your LT one is a bit lower, so you are working at just above LT1 one and say 80%, that's probably not a bad spot. Especially if you are doubling. The bullseye for singles seems to be looking up to LT2, but not reaching it. The bullseye for doubles is hovering around LT1 or a fraction above in the AM and PM pushing the boat out again towards LT2. PM likely not quite as aggressive as on singles, but it still gets significantly more cumulative load.
It's probably why if you double, you need a much clearer understanding of where all your turn points are. For NSM, it's much user friendly that if you know roughly your max HR and LTHR, you are good to go. It's also why it works so well as laid out. You can have a basic understanding of physiology and still get almost all the benefits out of smart training. That's testimant to sirpoc for all the work he has done to communicate ideas in a clear way for the average runner.
Magness dropping his "How To Get Fast Running Under 50 Miles A Week | Amateur Training Masterclass" video and makes sub-threshold (higher end aerobic work) the center of it. But then can't help himself and talks about training for the Mile and 3000m. Steve, how many amateur runners (especially in the USA, and even more especially in the south-central US), are out running a 3000m on the track? 😂
He does seem to finally "get" the idea of running faster paces but in a sub-threshold state. i.e. the 45/15 workout. Guess all that talking with Bakken finally got to him. Pretty decent watch in the scheme of internet training talks for adult amateurs.
Step 1: Beginners should do easy running with strides
Step 2: Do sub-threshold work, starting 15 minutes / week -< 30 minutes a week, but "split it up however you want, it does not really matter too much" - could be 1x15, 1x10, 10x3 fartleks, progression runs. Probably don't exceed 2 twice a week, 3 a week is risking overtraining.
Step 3: Turn your strides into feel-good actual fast workouts. Because in his mind many hobby joggers are focused on mile/3k races. But if you are training for half/marathons, maybe just do race-specific and moderate threshold sessions (so not fast speed workouts... then?)
So if I understand correctly, he's basically endorsing NSM but in a very wordy roundabout way because he needs to rely on his complex and comprehensive understanding of all the his scientific/historical training out there, he believes strongly in the necessity of strides/speed sessions, and really dislikes the thought of appreciating a somewhat anecdotal simplified system that safely maxes out sub-threshold work for non-elite working amateurs.
People who do this type of training: how do you approach strength training (if at all)? Bakken seems to support doing it on hard days 'if you want to.' He also seems to support plyometrics. Curious what other people's experiences are
This post was edited 29 seconds after it was posted.
Steve Magness posted a new vid today on his take of how to get fast running under 50 miles a week:
tl;dr
Step 1: Beginners should do easy running with strides
Step 2: Do sub-threshold work, starting 15 minutes / week -< 30 minutes a week, but "split it up however you want, it does not really matter too much" - could be 1x15, 1x10, 10x3 fartleks, progression runs. Probably don't exceed 2 twice a week, 3 a week is risking overtraining.
Step 3: Turn your strides into feel-good actual fast workouts. Because in his mind many hobby joggers are focused on mile/3k races. But if you are training for half/marathons, maybe just do race-specific and moderate threshold sessions (so not fast speed workouts... then?)
So if I understand correctly, he's basically endorsing NSM but in a very wordy roundabout way because he needs to rely on his complex and comprehensive understanding of all the his scientific/historical training out there, he believes strongly in the necessity of strides/speed sessions, and really dislikes the thought of appreciating a somewhat anecdotal simplified system that safely maxes out sub-threshold work for non-elite working amateurs.
Found his appearance in this thread a little weird and arrogant, as well misinformed at times. Really dug his heels in on some strange issues. Also, not sure he understood the deliberate lack of periodization.
Suddenly he's an expect on sub threshold. "Make it about me Magness". Can't resist putting his own spin on something that thousands of people call already told you will work.
People who do this type of training: how do you approach strength training (if at all)? Bakken seems to support doing it on hard days 'if you want to.' He also seems to support plyometrics. Curious what other people's experiences are
Bakken recommends: No strenght training.
But for me at least I have a normal life outside running and I dont want to look like man without a single muscle. I have a gym in my garage. I normally do 1 or 2 baselift (deadlift, squat, bench, OH Press) + chins every day. 3x5 reps. I take rest day when I feel like it. I keep it a bit easy on squat. I never felt low volume but heavy impact my running.
& then he adds unless you have weaknesses (don't all runners?), asymmetries, low bone density, history of a stress fracture, or are over 50, lol. Then says weights can improve running economy 2-8%. Yet is one of the riskiest things runners can do, & increases muscle tone drastically. So your call, lol.
I do 2x 35 min and have been very happy with the results. I wouldn’t recommend the long run as a third workout. I tried it a few times. It’s far too easy for workout long runs to become quite difficult and impede recovery. Low reward; high risk.
When you plateau for no other obvious reason. In addition, for longer duration events such as the marathon.
Also, some runners will struggle if the weekly pace is too monotonous with just sub-threshold work plus easy running. They improve, but with constantly heavy legs. The variety is just a little too little. Those runners, who I would say are in the minority, can maybe benefit from adding 45/15 a bit earlier.
But I respect the structure of the Norwegian Singles, and I would also say: before you change the training, are you really hitting the intensity right?
On implementing 45/15:
Marius Bakken wrote:
I have seen runners these days go into this but get into trouble. Sore legs, sometimes actual injuries. In most cases I think it is due to forgetting the principle of gradual transition and that is really, really important.
For 45/15 you want to glide into getting used to it. Maybe in the beginning you do 5 to 7 at the end of a 5x6 minute threshold session. That way the legs meet the format in a small dose, inside a session they already know. The body gets to sample the stimulus without the full volume landing at once.
Then you gradually go into a separate session, but very controlled under the threshold. Maybe 15 to 20 reps the first time, at a pace where the lactate stays well below what you would hit on a regular threshold day. It should feel almost too easy. The work is in getting the legs used to the pattern, not in hitting a target pace. A few sessions like this spread over 2 to 3 weeks builds the tolerance.
When you are used to this you can start experimenting with it. Either as a pure sub-threshold session where you sit at or just under the lactate level for 25 to 30 reps, or as an X-session going over the threshold on purpose. Both have their place, but both require the base of controlled work underneath. Skip that step and the sessions work for a few weeks before something breaks down.
Again, always think about load as both absolute and relative. Absolute in terms of total load in general, and relative in terms of what was previously done. A session that looks moderate on paper can still be a big jump if it is the first time the legs see that particular format. Both dimensions have to be respected.
So be absolutely focused on doing any type of transition the smoothest possible way, including the 45/15s.
& then he adds unless you have weaknesses (don't all runners?), asymmetries, low bone density, history of a stress fracture, or are over 50, lol. Then says weights can improve running economy 2-8%. Yet is one of the riskiest things runners can do, & increases muscle tone drastically. So your call, lol.
Muscle tone is literally pseudoscience yet osteoporosis, sarcopaenia, preventing stress fractures etc are all actual real benefits of lifting weights. Alongside the performance specific benefit of improving running economy and preventing muscle cramps at longer distances. Stupid to just not lift because of muscle tone lol.
BMD is about 75% genetic, and bone responds more to shock than to force. The idea that lifting weights regularly is a safeguard against osteoporosis is therefore a myth - in fact, when one of the world's experts on exercise and bone spoke at a recent conference, she said she couldn't tell you what exercise was actually best in this context, although the evidence pointed toward plain ol' walking.
Funny that he just put such a long reply in the AMA on it (including listing 3 ways in how muscle tone can be measured) only for trolls to appear here afterwards saying a pretty well established medical term is pseudoscience. Like clockwork.
Magness dropping his "How To Get Fast Running Under 50 Miles A Week | Amateur Training Masterclass" video and makes sub-threshold (higher end aerobic work) the center of it. But then can't help himself and talks about training for the Mile and 3000m. Steve, how many amateur runners (especially in the USA, and even more especially in the south-central US), are out running a 3000m on the track? 😂
He does seem to finally "get" the idea of running faster paces but in a sub-threshold state. i.e. the 45/15 workout. Guess all that talking with Bakken finally got to him. Pretty decent watch in the scheme of internet training talks for adult amateurs.
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