Official Russia vs Ukraine War Thread

You're saying I have the opportunity to help upper middle class Americans and average Ukrainians while decimating Russia? Sounds good to me.

it's tricky, this question. What should the average american think about the Ukraine war.

You say they have nothing much to gain by fighting the Russians.

You could say the same thing about WW2. What did it matter to the average American if the Nazis owned Europe instead of them being self-governed republics? Probably not much. Initially anyway, although the lower standards of living in authoritarian regimes would have depressed American standards of living, surely.

I think you'd agree that it's better for the West in general that democracies were reestablished in Europe after Germany's defeat. And that the war was worthwhile. Certainly living standards have risen mightily in the West after democracies were restored.

I think we have to acknowlege that part of the role of the rich Western democracies is to be the arsenal of democracy and push back when authoritarian regimes try to extinguish democracy. Democracy is fragile and needs to be defended.

But many in 1940 America made your argument - that this was Europe's war and Americans have nothing to do with it. I wonder if agreed with those Americans in 1940.

Cecci posting something idiotic and irrelevant about healthcare in 3… 2… 1…

Energy to Europe was stabilized before this war, when Russia sold gas to Europe.

The west doesn't support Ukraine (yet).

Who knows what becomes of their pending EU status. There are a lot of reqs Ukraine needs to meet before they can join and given they use Neo-Nazis openly serving in their military to kill their own civilians, not looking good. The EU does not like to contradict the United Nations findings on Ukraine's atrocities against its own civilians.

They'll never get into NATO. america (et al) just want to throw weapons at them, without killing their own troops. Rich america wins, and the only casualties for america are the 50k dead american civilians every year in america who die because they lack adequate healthcare.

Ukraine's acceptance to the west is all posturing. They were burned as cannonon fodder so america can run it's energy and military industrial complex scams on ANOTHER COUNTRY. Ukraine has been strung along. Can't blame the west for stringing them along. Ukraine is a hot mess of corruption.

none of it benefits average americans in anyway. sending billions will not start universal healthcare in america, which why 50,000 americans die in america every year.

Your concession is a start, albeit still off.

Remove middle class. They aren't seeing anything from gas sales to europe or weapons sales either.

rich americans

You didn't disagree that "Russia has a strategic interest in fracturing western support for Ukraine and an active propaganda campaign to that end".

Ukraine already has the . This isn't some hypothetical relationship and it makes Putin sad and a little bit crazy.

en.wikipedia.org

European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine_Association_Agreement

Link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E...

Sure they are. I’m making a killing in the markets based on the Russian invasion. My like-minded friends and colleagues are doing the same.

You didn’t answer the question of why I should care about “average Americans” MORE than “average Ukrainians”.

So all I’m getting from this is that Putin lied when he threw a tantrum about how NATO was going to put nuclear missiles in Ukraine. Basically, you’ve shot his whole premise for invading to bits - Ukraine was NOT close to EU or NATO membership - and this was an imperialistic landgrab. Sounds like stopping Russia is an excellent use of my tax dollars.

I thought the war ended last week when Russia took control of a pile of rubble and a salt mine. That's what the Putin fanboys here were saying, that it was all over for Ukraine. I guess when you've been losing for so long, the smallest victory is cause for big celebration.

And to think, Prigozhin worked so hard and sacrificed so many Russians for those couple square miles of ground, just to get completely dissed by Putin.

Does anyone know what happened to Zelenskys advisor and aide Arestovych?

Yes. He resigned because he said publicly that the KH-22 missile that hit the apartment building in Dnipro MAY have been taken down by air defenses.

Even IF it were, his departure is rather insignificant. Big nothing burger compared to the Russian infighting and political drama currently going on.

breakingdefense.com

'We need to send' Putin a message: UK minister on why tanks are now going to Ukraine - Breaking Defense

Tim Martin

The decision to send the Challenger 2 tanks to Kyiv was influenced by an understanding that Ukraine now “needs the ability to push back hard in the East and the South [of the country],” said James Cleverly, UK foreign secreta...

Link:breakingdefense.com/2023/01/we-need-to...

Fu*k yeah Brits!

This is the way the world works. The smart, rich and powerful exert their authority and influence over the rest of the world. This it has it has been and will forever be for humanity. Complain and cry about it all you like. You can’t change it. You opinions are just words with no influence on anything.

Russia will be driven from Ukraine, Putin will be killed or exiled and Ukraine will join the winning West.

Check back to this post in a year, and you’ll see I’m right.

Thanks for the info. So now I'm curious how come Ukrainian air defense system could have shot down Russian missile in a residential area?

Also, if this is true, why should Arestovych resign?

Ukraine has said that their air defenses are not capable of shooting down the Ka-22, which is a supersonic anti-ship missile.

He resigned because he put out info he later said he got from a friend and not official sources. He was only a advisor, and not on immediate staff. Again, rather insignificant.

Well that was rather stupid of him then. Good riddance.

You seem to be under a delusion that if you repeat your strawman about American healthcare often enough, people here will believe it.

The facts are that: (1) the US could provide universal healthcare (or expanded healthcare) and support Ukraine; and (2) the US would not provide universal healthcare (or expanded healthcare) even if it wasn't supporting Ukraine. There simply is not the political will (or even clear popular support) for universal healthcare. While I would prefer that the US implement universal healthcare, I am not stupid enough to think that the failure to do so is tied to the support for Ukraine. And I note that your ramblings on the topic haven't convinced anyone else here either.

Here's a succinct and correct set of thoughts from the Finnish PM - a nation that has faced RU aggression in the lifetimes of those around us.

The world needs to put up a strong defensive wall around RU - that country has proven itself incapable of being a member of the civilized world.

And is a good answer to why the world needs to stand up now...because if we don't RU will continue to attempt to enlarge itself and its sphere.

Russia would not have invaded Ukraine had it been a member of NATO, Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin said Tuesday, adding that was the primary motivation for her country’s application to join the military alliance.
Marin said she was “sure” that Vladimir Putin would not have launched the invasion had Kyiv already been a member. “We can look down the history and ask ourselves the question, should Ukraine already be a member of NATO?” she told the World Economic Forum meeting in Davos, Switzerland, adding that “then there wouldn’t be a war in Ukraine and this is why also Finland, Sweden is ratifying a NATO membership.”
She added that in 2014 when Russia attacked Crimea, Europe and its allies should have acted more robustly. “We need to learn from this day,” Marin told the gathering of high-level politicians and business people in the Swiss Alps.

BTW this is the Soviet rationalization for invading Finland in 1939 - it's pretty much exactly the same set of lies and propaganda RU uses today. National defense, false claims of fascism, regaining lost territory...Amazing stuff. The RU mind does not change much.

Justification
Soviet General Secretary Joseph Stalin regarded it a disappointment that the Soviet Union could not halt the Finnish Revolution.[58] He thought that the pro-Finland movement in Karelia posed a direct threat to Leningrad and that the area and defences of Finland could be used to invade the Soviet Union or restrict fleet movements.[59] Soviet propaganda then painted Finland's leadership as a "vicious and reactionary fascist clique". Field Marshal Mannerheim and Väinö Tanner, the leader of the Finnish Social Democratic Party, were targeted for particular scorn.[60] When Stalin gained absolute power through the Great Purge of 1938, the Soviets changed their foreign policy toward Finland and began to pursue the reconquest of the provinces of Tsarist Russia that had been lost during the chaos of the October Revolution of 1917 and the Russian Civil War almost two decades earlier. Soviet leaders believed that the old empire's extended borders provided territorial security and wanted Leningrad, only 32 km (20 mi) from the Finnish border, to enjoy a similar level of security against the rising power of Nazi Germany.[61][62]