Allen53 wrote:
The oldest woman in the Swiss canton of St. Gallen died last week at the age of 109. She survived the „Spanish flu“ of 1918, was not corona-infected and „for her age she was doing very well“. The „corona isolation“, however, had „very much affected her“: „She faded without the daily visits of her family members.“
That is extremely sad.
Anyone with a heart should want to end the lockdowns immediately.
dunes runner wrote:
Allen53 wrote:
The oldest woman in the Swiss canton of St. Gallen died last week at the age of 109. She survived the „Spanish flu“ of 1918, was not corona-infected and „for her age she was doing very well“. The „corona isolation“, however, had „very much affected her“: „She faded without the daily visits of her family members.“
That is extremely sad.
Anyone with a heart should want to end the lockdowns immediately.
She died with the lockdowns, not FROM the lockdowns.
spot the moran wrote:
dunes runner wrote:
That is extremely sad.
Anyone with a heart should want to end the lockdowns immediately.
She died with the lockdowns, not FROM the lockdowns.
So you're saying that it's a "lockdown related" death, or a "probable lockdown" related death.
The CDC says that counts.
April 25, 2020
Medical updates
Video: The Californian physician Dr. Dan Erickson described his observations regarding Covid19 in a press conference. Hospitals and intensive care units in California and other states have remained largely empty so far. Based on the respective positive test rates, Dr. Erickson calculates that the lethality rate of Covid19 is currently 0.03% in California, 0.05% in Spain, 0.09% in Sweden and 0.1% in New York State, while the lethality rate of the flu in the USA is around 0.13%. (Note: the positive test rate cannot reflect local „hotspot effects“). The probability of surviving Covid19 without symptoms or with mild symptoms is over 95%. Dr. Erickson reports that doctors from several US states have been „pressured“ to issue death certificates mentioning Covid19, even though they themselves did not agree. Dr. Erickson argues that lockdowns and fear weaken people’s immune system and health. There has already been a marked increase in „secondary effects“ such as alcoholism, depression, suicide, and abuse of children and spouses. Dr Erickson recommends that only the sick and not the healthy or the whole society should be quarantined. A mouthguard only makes sense in acute situations such as in hospital, but not in everyday life, according to Dr. Erickson
Professor Detlef Krüger, the direct predecessor of the well-known German virologist Christian Drosten at the Charité Clinic in Berlin, explains in a recent interview that Covid19 is „in many respects comparable to the flu“ and „no more dangerous than certain variants of the flu virus“.
Professor Krüger considers the „mouth and nose protection discovered by politicians“ to be „actionism“ and a potential „germ-slinger“. At the same time he warns of „massive collateral damage“ caused by the measures taken.
Swiss pathologists have come to the conclusion that many of the test-positive deceased did not suffer from pneumonia, but had a disorder of the blood vessels and thus of the oxygen exchange in the lungs. This could explain why the ventilation of critical Covid19 patients is often not effective and why patients with existing cardiovascular problems belong to the risk group. In fact, all of the autopsied patients suffered from high blood pressure, a large proportion were severely overweight (obese) and two thirds had pre-damaged coronary arteries.
The latest figures from Italy show (pp. 12/13) that 60 of almost 17,000 doctors and nurses who tested positive died. This results in a Covid19 lethality rate of less than 0.1% for those under 50, 0.27% for those aged 50 to 60, 1.4% for those aged 60 to 70, and 12.6% for those aged 70 to 80. Even these figures are likely too high, as these are deaths with and not necessarily from corona viruses, and as up to 80% of people remain asymptomatic and some may not have been tested.
Overall, however, the values are in line with those from e.g. South Korea and give a lethality rate for the general population in the range of influenza.
The head of the Italian Civil Defence declared in mid-April that more than 1800 people died in nursing homes in Lombardy, and that in many cases the cause of death was not yet clear. It was already known beforehand that the care of the elderly and nursing homes and, as a result, the entire health care system in parts of Lombardy had collapsed, in part due to fear of the virus and the lockdown.
The latest figures from Belgium show that there too, just over 50% of all additional deaths occur in nursing homes, which do not benefit from a general lockdown. In 6% of these deaths Covid19 was „confirmed“, in 94% of the deaths it was „suspected“. About 70% of the test-positive persons (employees and residents) showed no symptoms.
The former Swedish and European chief epidemiologist Professor Johan Giesecke gave the Austrian magazine Addendum a candid interview. Professor Giesecke says that 75 to 90% of the epidemic is „invisible“ because that many people develop no or hardly any symptoms. A lockdown would therefore be „pointless“ and harm society. The basis of the Swedish strategy was that „people are not stupid“. Giesecke expects a death rate between 0.1 and 0.2%, similar to that of influenza. Italy and New York had been very poorly prepared for the virus and had not protected their risk groups, Professor Giesecke argues.
The British Guardian cites new studies according to which air pollution could be a „key factor“ in Covid19 deaths. For example, 80% of deaths in four countries were in the most polluted regions (including Lombardy and Madrid).
The German newspaper DIE ZEIT focuses on the high vacancy rates in German hospitals, which in some departments are as high as 70%. Even cancer examinations and organ transplants that were not acutely necessary for survival had been cancelled to make room for Covid19 patients, but these have so far been largely absent.
In Germany, a mask requirement was introduced in public transport and in retail outlets. The president of the World Medical Association, Frank Montgomery, has criticized this as „wrong“ and the intended use of scarves and drapes as „ridiculous“. In fact, studies show that the use of masks in everyday life does not bring measurable benefits to healthy and asymptomatic people, which is why the Swiss infectiologist Dr. Vernazza spoke of a „media hype“. Other critics speak of a symbol of „forced, publicly visible obedience“.
In 2019, a WHO study found „little to no scientific evidence“ for the effectiveness of measures such as „social distancing“, travel restrictions and lockdowns. (Original study)
A German laboratory stated in early April that according to WHO recommendations, Covid19 virus tests are now considered positive even if the specific target sequence of the Covid19 virus is negative and only the more general corona virus target sequence is positive. However, this can lead to other corona viruses (cold viruses) also trigger a false positive test result. The laboratory also explained that Covid19 antibodies are often only detectable two to three weeks after the onset of symptoms. This must be taken into account so that the actual number of people already immune to Covid19 is not underestimated.
In both Switzerland and Germany, some politicians have called for „compulsory vaccination against corona“. However, the vaccination against the so-called „swine flu“ of 2009/2010, for example, led to sometimes severe neurological damage, especially in children, and to claims for damages in the millions.
Professor Christopher Kuhbandner: About the lack of scientific justification for the corona measures: „The reported figures on new infections very dramatically overestimate the true spread of the corona virus. The observed rapid increase in new infections is almost exclusively due to the fact that the number of tests has increased rapidly over time (see figure below). So, at least according to the reported figures, there was in reality never an exponential spread of the coronavirus. The reported figures on new infections hide the fact that the number of new infections has been decreasing since about early or mid-March.“
I don't think they want to talk anymore.
That German professor cited above claimed there would be 30 deaths per day. They are at 5877.
The United States is at 54,000, with 53,000 of those deaths coming in one month. The flu has never taken nearly as many in a month. Indeed, most years, flu deaths for the year are around half a month's Coronavirus cases, and that is with greatly decreased contact. Flu infections of 64 million people are common, yet deaths in most years are far smaller than this. We've been seeing roughly the same number of deaths per day (2000) and new cases per day (30,000, some days higher, like today) for about three weeks now in the U.S. As NYC improves, the death toll should fall, but I don't see it falling even to a level where there would be fewer than 100,000 deaths by the end of May.
Facts Matter wrote:
sp2 wrote:
P*ss off now. I've spent way too much time today attempting to expose and/or enlighten idiots.
All you jaggoffs squawking still can't do math.
22,000 is greater than 69.
Until that 69 surpasses the 22,000, which by the way increases every day at a rate of about 146, the statement that the coronavirus is deadlier than the flu is absolute bullsh!t. If you cannot understand that as a FACT, you need go lick an 80 year old, catch the virus and put yourself out of your own misery.
This one didn’t age very well for facts matter.
Allen53 wrote:
April 25, 2020
Medical updates
Video: The Californian physician Dr. Dan Erickson described his observations regarding Covid19 in a press conference. Hospitals and intensive care units in California and other states have remained largely empty so far. Based on the respective positive test rates, Dr. Erickson calculates that the lethality rate of Covid19 is currently 0.03% in California, 0.05% in Spain, 0.09% in Sweden and 0.1% in New York State, while the lethality rate of the flu in the USA is around 0.13%. (Note: the positive test rate cannot reflect local „hotspot effects“). The probability of surviving Covid19 without symptoms or with mild symptoms is over 95%. Dr. Erickson reports that doctors from several US states have been „pressured“ to issue death certificates mentioning Covid19, even though they themselves did not agree. Dr. Erickson argues that lockdowns and fear weaken people’s immune system and health. There has already been a marked increase in „secondary effects“ such as alcoholism, depression, suicide, and abuse of children and spouses. Dr Erickson recommends that only the sick and not the healthy or the whole society should be quarantined. A mouthguard only makes sense in acute situations such as in hospital, but not in everyday life, according to Dr. Erickson
Professor Detlef Krüger, the direct predecessor of the well-known German virologist Christian Drosten at the Charité Clinic in Berlin, explains in a recent interview that Covid19 is „in many respects comparable to the flu“ and „no more dangerous than certain variants of the flu virus“.
Professor Krüger considers the „mouth and nose protection discovered by politicians“ to be „actionism“ and a potential „germ-slinger“. At the same time he warns of „massive collateral damage“ caused by the measures taken.
Swiss pathologists have come to the conclusion that many of the test-positive deceased did not suffer from pneumonia, but had a disorder of the blood vessels and thus of the oxygen exchange in the lungs. This could explain why the ventilation of critical Covid19 patients is often not effective and why patients with existing cardiovascular problems belong to the risk group. In fact, all of the autopsied patients suffered from high blood pressure, a large proportion were severely overweight (obese) and two thirds had pre-damaged coronary arteries.
The latest figures from Italy show (pp. 12/13) that 60 of almost 17,000 doctors and nurses who tested positive died. This results in a Covid19 lethality rate of less than 0.1% for those under 50, 0.27% for those aged 50 to 60, 1.4% for those aged 60 to 70, and 12.6% for those aged 70 to 80. Even these figures are likely too high, as these are deaths with and not necessarily from corona viruses, and as up to 80% of people remain asymptomatic and some may not have been tested.
Overall, however, the values are in line with those from e.g. South Korea and give a lethality rate for the general population in the range of influenza.
The head of the Italian Civil Defence declared in mid-April that more than 1800 people died in nursing homes in Lombardy, and that in many cases the cause of death was not yet clear. It was already known beforehand that the care of the elderly and nursing homes and, as a result, the entire health care system in parts of Lombardy had collapsed, in part due to fear of the virus and the lockdown.
The latest figures from Belgium show that there too, just over 50% of all additional deaths occur in nursing homes, which do not benefit from a general lockdown. In 6% of these deaths Covid19 was „confirmed“, in 94% of the deaths it was „suspected“. About 70% of the test-positive persons (employees and residents) showed no symptoms.
The former Swedish and European chief epidemiologist Professor Johan Giesecke gave the Austrian magazine Addendum a candid interview. Professor Giesecke says that 75 to 90% of the epidemic is „invisible“ because that many people develop no or hardly any symptoms. A lockdown would therefore be „pointless“ and harm society. The basis of the Swedish strategy was that „people are not stupid“. Giesecke expects a death rate between 0.1 and 0.2%, similar to that of influenza. Italy and New York had been very poorly prepared for the virus and had not protected their risk groups, Professor Giesecke argues.
The British Guardian cites new studies according to which air pollution could be a „key factor“ in Covid19 deaths. For example, 80% of deaths in four countries were in the most polluted regions (including Lombardy and Madrid).
The German newspaper DIE ZEIT focuses on the high vacancy rates in German hospitals, which in some departments are as high as 70%. Even cancer examinations and organ transplants that were not acutely necessary for survival had been cancelled to make room for Covid19 patients, but these have so far been largely absent.
In Germany, a mask requirement was introduced in public transport and in retail outlets. The president of the World Medical Association, Frank Montgomery, has criticized this as „wrong“ and the intended use of scarves and drapes as „ridiculous“. In fact, studies show that the use of masks in everyday life does not bring measurable benefits to healthy and asymptomatic people, which is why the Swiss infectiologist Dr. Vernazza spoke of a „media hype“. Other critics speak of a symbol of „forced, publicly visible obedience“.
In 2019, a WHO study found „little to no scientific evidence“ for the effectiveness of measures such as „social distancing“, travel restrictions and lockdowns. (Original study)
A German laboratory stated in early April that according to WHO recommendations, Covid19 virus tests are now considered positive even if the specific target sequence of the Covid19 virus is negative and only the more general corona virus target sequence is positive. However, this can lead to other corona viruses (cold viruses) also trigger a false positive test result. The laboratory also explained that Covid19 antibodies are often only detectable two to three weeks after the onset of symptoms. This must be taken into account so that the actual number of people already immune to Covid19 is not underestimated.
In both Switzerland and Germany, some politicians have called for „compulsory vaccination against corona“. However, the vaccination against the so-called „swine flu“ of 2009/2010, for example, led to sometimes severe neurological damage, especially in children, and to claims for damages in the millions.
Professor Christopher Kuhbandner: About the lack of scientific justification for the corona measures: „The reported figures on new infections very dramatically overestimate the true spread of the corona virus. The observed rapid increase in new infections is almost exclusively due to the fact that the number of tests has increased rapidly over time (see figure below). So, at least according to the reported figures, there was in reality never an exponential spread of the coronavirus. The reported figures on new infections hide the fact that the number of new infections has been decreasing since about early or mid-March.“
https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/
Unbelievable!: "The probability of surviving Covid19 without symptoms or with mild symptoms is over 95%." That's all I need to know to realize how we all got fooled by the medical cartel! A virus where "95%" of the infected experience only "mild or no symptoms" is not worthy of the destruction of the economy that our illustrious government leaders perpetuated! This was a power move by the medical cartel for more control over our lives! (imagine that). And then you have the Democratic party politicalizing the hell out of this for their sole purpose of trying to get Trump not re-elected. How stupid are we, the American people, to fall for this. But when the medical cartel working through the government has the masses paralyzed in fear, it's easy to dupe the people! And that also explains all the paid trolls here continually fear-mongering.
https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/04/23/covid-19-fraud-researcher-jim-west-rides-again/zxcvzcxv wrote:
The United States is at 54,000
That is absolutely false. Full stop. Come back from that alternate universe where people who die of other things are dying of covid-19 just because they happen (or are suspected or assumed) to be infected with sars-cov2.
54,000 people have not been killed by covid disease in the US. It is far less.
Allen53 wrote:
April 25, 2020
Medical updates
Video: The Californian physician Dr. Dan Erickson described his observations regarding Covid19 in a press conference. Hospitals and intensive care units in California and other states have remained largely empty so far. Based on the respective positive test rates, Dr. Erickson calculates that the lethality rate of Covid19 is currently 0.03% in California, 0.05% in Spain, 0.09% in Sweden and 0.1% in New York State, while the lethality rate of the flu in the USA is around 0.13%. (Note: the positive test rate cannot reflect local „hotspot effects“). The probability of surviving Covid19 without symptoms or with mild symptoms is over 95%. Dr. Erickson reports that doctors from several US states have been „pressured“ to issue death certificates mentioning Covid19, even though they themselves did not agree. Dr. Erickson argues that lockdowns and fear weaken people’s immune system and health. There has already been a marked increase in „secondary effects“ such as alcoholism, depression, suicide, and abuse of children and spouses. Dr Erickson recommends that only the sick and not the healthy or the whole society should be quarantined. A mouthguard only makes sense in acute situations such as in hospital, but not in everyday life, according to Dr. Erickson
Professor Detlef Krüger, the direct predecessor of the well-known German virologist Christian Drosten at the Charité Clinic in Berlin, explains in a recent interview that Covid19 is „in many respects comparable to the flu“ and „no more dangerous than certain variants of the flu virus“.
Professor Krüger considers the „mouth and nose protection discovered by politicians“ to be „actionism“ and a potential „germ-slinger“. At the same time he warns of „massive collateral damage“ caused by the measures taken.
Swiss pathologists have come to the conclusion that many of the test-positive deceased did not suffer from pneumonia, but had a disorder of the blood vessels and thus of the oxygen exchange in the lungs. This could explain why the ventilation of critical Covid19 patients is often not effective and why patients with existing cardiovascular problems belong to the risk group. In fact, all of the autopsied patients suffered from high blood pressure, a large proportion were severely overweight (obese) and two thirds had pre-damaged coronary arteries.
The latest figures from Italy show (pp. 12/13) that 60 of almost 17,000 doctors and nurses who tested positive died. This results in a Covid19 lethality rate of less than 0.1% for those under 50, 0.27% for those aged 50 to 60, 1.4% for those aged 60 to 70, and 12.6% for those aged 70 to 80. Even these figures are likely too high, as these are deaths with and not necessarily from corona viruses, and as up to 80% of people remain asymptomatic and some may not have been tested.
Overall, however, the values are in line with those from e.g. South Korea and give a lethality rate for the general population in the range of influenza.
The head of the Italian Civil Defence declared in mid-April that more than 1800 people died in nursing homes in Lombardy, and that in many cases the cause of death was not yet clear. It was already known beforehand that the care of the elderly and nursing homes and, as a result, the entire health care system in parts of Lombardy had collapsed, in part due to fear of the virus and the lockdown.
The latest figures from Belgium show that there too, just over 50% of all additional deaths occur in nursing homes, which do not benefit from a general lockdown. In 6% of these deaths Covid19 was „confirmed“, in 94% of the deaths it was „suspected“. About 70% of the test-positive persons (employees and residents) showed no symptoms.
The former Swedish and European chief epidemiologist Professor Johan Giesecke gave the Austrian magazine Addendum a candid interview. Professor Giesecke says that 75 to 90% of the epidemic is „invisible“ because that many people develop no or hardly any symptoms. A lockdown would therefore be „pointless“ and harm society. The basis of the Swedish strategy was that „people are not stupid“. Giesecke expects a death rate between 0.1 and 0.2%, similar to that of influenza. Italy and New York had been very poorly prepared for the virus and had not protected their risk groups, Professor Giesecke argues.
The British Guardian cites new studies according to which air pollution could be a „key factor“ in Covid19 deaths. For example, 80% of deaths in four countries were in the most polluted regions (including Lombardy and Madrid).
The German newspaper DIE ZEIT focuses on the high vacancy rates in German hospitals, which in some departments are as high as 70%. Even cancer examinations and organ transplants that were not acutely necessary for survival had been cancelled to make room for Covid19 patients, but these have so far been largely absent.
In Germany, a mask requirement was introduced in public transport and in retail outlets. The president of the World Medical Association, Frank Montgomery, has criticized this as „wrong“ and the intended use of scarves and drapes as „ridiculous“. In fact, studies show that the use of masks in everyday life does not bring measurable benefits to healthy and asymptomatic people, which is why the Swiss infectiologist Dr. Vernazza spoke of a „media hype“. Other critics speak of a symbol of „forced, publicly visible obedience“.
In 2019, a WHO study found „little to no scientific evidence“ for the effectiveness of measures such as „social distancing“, travel restrictions and lockdowns. (Original study)
A German laboratory stated in early April that according to WHO recommendations, Covid19 virus tests are now considered positive even if the specific target sequence of the Covid19 virus is negative and only the more general corona virus target sequence is positive. However, this can lead to other corona viruses (cold viruses) also trigger a false positive test result. The laboratory also explained that Covid19 antibodies are often only detectable two to three weeks after the onset of symptoms. This must be taken into account so that the actual number of people already immune to Covid19 is not underestimated.
In both Switzerland and Germany, some politicians have called for „compulsory vaccination against corona“. However, the vaccination against the so-called „swine flu“ of 2009/2010, for example, led to sometimes severe neurological damage, especially in children, and to claims for damages in the millions.
Professor Christopher Kuhbandner: About the lack of scientific justification for the corona measures: „The reported figures on new infections very dramatically overestimate the true spread of the corona virus. The observed rapid increase in new infections is almost exclusively due to the fact that the number of tests has increased rapidly over time (see figure below). So, at least according to the reported figures, there was in reality never an exponential spread of the coronavirus. The reported figures on new infections hide the fact that the number of new infections has been decreasing since about early or mid-March.“
https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/
No one is going to read all of that. And no one cares anymore. You are just talking to yourselves at this point.
zxcvzcxv wrote:
That German professor cited above claimed there would be 30 deaths per day. They are at 5877.
The United States is at 54,000, with 53,000 of those deaths coming in one month. The flu has never taken nearly as many in a month. Indeed, most years, flu deaths for the year are around half a month's Coronavirus cases, and that is with greatly decreased contact. Flu infections of 64 million people are common, yet deaths in most years are far smaller than this. We've been seeing roughly the same number of deaths per day (2000) and new cases per day (30,000, some days higher, like today) for about three weeks now in the U.S. As NYC improves, the death toll should fall, but I don't see it falling even to a level where there would be fewer than 100,000 deaths by the end of May.
C'mon now ...why haven't you done proper research on this? On the doping threads you participate in, you do very good research - what happen here?
Go back and research the flu pandemics of 1957 & 1968:
First the the 1957 "Asian" flu:
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1957-1958-pandemic.html"The estimated number of deaths was 1.1 million worldwide and 116,000 in the United States."
The 1968 "Hong Kong" flu:
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html"The estimated number of deaths was 1 million worldwide and about 100,000 in the United States"
These were two very bad severe flu seasons: 116,000/100,00 deaths from the "Asian"/"Hong Kong" flu is egregious! However, neither the Eisenhower nor Johnson administration shut downed and destroyed the economy like this administration has! I was a little kid growing up in the Bronx during the Hong Kong flu and just about every other person was sick as dog. In fact, if you didn't get the flu there was something wrong with you. And the elderly and people with medical conditions were dying left & right - no different than what you're seeing here (who would have thought). But the nation wasn't paralyzed in fear back then and there was no medical industrial complex preying on the psychic if the American people like they are today.
This coronavirus isn't going to surpass the death toll from either the Hong Kong or Asian flu totals. This coronavirus pandemic is very similar to the severe flu seasons of 57 & 68. Fauci and WHO act like this is an "end-of-world" virus inciting fear at every opportunity. And the disinformation spewed out by the WHO has gotten everyone so confused. So, fear at one end of the spectrum and confusion at the other which makes people vulnerable to be duped.
This is a severe flu - similar to the influenza pandemics of 57 & 68.
Bad Wigins wrote:
zxcvzcxv wrote:
The United States is at 54,000
That is absolutely false. Full stop. Come back from that alternate universe where people who die of other things are dying of covid-19 just because they happen (or are suspected or assumed) to be infected with sars-cov2.
54,000 people have not been killed by covid disease in the US. It is far less.
I’ll ask again. You place absolute reliability in Flu death numbers but have called Covid death numbers “cooked” and repeatedly say they are wrong without any factual substantiation.
Doctors and health officials have repeatedly explained to you how cause of death is treated and you chose to ignore the people who are on the coal face in favour of obscure reports in - often - unreliable publications.
Flu deaths are based on an ESTIMATE. The CDC look at the proportion of the population who present with “flu like illness” (no testing) - their exact words. They estimate the number of cases, from that they estimate the number of hospitalisations and from that they estimate the number of deaths.
If you question COViD numbers - which are prepared by the same public health officials - and call people nasty names for believing those numbers - how can you blindly accept Flu numbers? Academically, you have to apply the same rigorous scrutiny to both sets of figures, not just the ones that suit your agenda.
Same goes with claiming. Deaths caused by lockdown - if you are going to count these as substantial, then conversely you have to consider deaths saved by lockdown - decreased mass shootings, school shootings, toad tolls etc. you can’t swing an argument to just suit one side when it can equally suit the other side. Surely you’re better than that.
Do you honestly believe that the majority of people - both experts and laymen - in every other country are so lacking in intelligence that they haven’t academically considered these things, weighed the evidence and realised the scale of the pandemic and acted accordingly?
Think About It wrote:
Bad Wigins wrote:
That is absolutely false. Full stop. Come back from that alternate universe where people who die of other things are dying of covid-19 just because they happen (or are suspected or assumed) to be infected with sars-cov2.
54,000 people have not been killed by covid disease in the US. It is far less.
I’ll ask again. You place absolute reliability in Flu death numbers but have called Covid death numbers “cooked” and repeatedly say they are wrong without any factual substantiation.
Doctors and health officials have repeatedly explained to you how cause of death is treated and you chose to ignore the people who are on the coal face in favour of obscure reports in - often - unreliable publications.
Flu deaths are based on an ESTIMATE. The CDC look at the proportion of the population who present with “flu like illness” (no testing) - their exact words. They estimate the number of cases, from that they estimate the number of hospitalisations and from that they estimate the number of deaths.
If you question COViD numbers - which are prepared by the same public health officials - and call people nasty names for believing those numbers - how can you blindly accept Flu numbers? Academically, you have to apply the same rigorous scrutiny to both sets of figures, not just the ones that suit your agenda.
Same goes with claiming. Deaths caused by lockdown - if you are going to count these as substantial, then conversely you have to consider deaths saved by lockdown - decreased mass shootings, school shootings, toad tolls etc. you can’t swing an argument to just suit one side when it can equally suit the other side. Surely you’re better than that.
Do you honestly believe that the majority of people - both experts and laymen - in every other country are so lacking in intelligence that they haven’t academically considered these things, weighed the evidence and realised the scale of the pandemic and acted accordingly?
The reason for questioning the numbers is the CDC guidelines for classifying deaths as COVID. They stopped just short of saying everyone who clears their throat before dying is a COVID death. If we're going to have minute by minute ticker tape reporting of every death - can't we at least use testing as the criteria?
But putting that aside - the numbers are still nowhere near what was predicted. Facts Matter gets slammed because the deaths will likely go over 61,000 (or whatever) by the same people who predicted millions of deaths. When the full results are in he might be off by 5% while the CORONA fans will be off by over 97%.
coronasceptic wrote:
Think About It wrote:
I’ll ask again. You place absolute reliability in Flu death numbers but have called Covid death numbers “cooked” and repeatedly say they are wrong without any factual substantiation.
Doctors and health officials have repeatedly explained to you how cause of death is treated and you chose to ignore the people who are on the coal face in favour of obscure reports in - often - unreliable publications.
Flu deaths are based on an ESTIMATE. The CDC look at the proportion of the population who present with “flu like illness” (no testing) - their exact words. They estimate the number of cases, from that they estimate the number of hospitalisations and from that they estimate the number of deaths.
If you question COViD numbers - which are prepared by the same public health officials - and call people nasty names for believing those numbers - how can you blindly accept Flu numbers? Academically, you have to apply the same rigorous scrutiny to both sets of figures, not just the ones that suit your agenda.
Same goes with claiming. Deaths caused by lockdown - if you are going to count these as substantial, then conversely you have to consider deaths saved by lockdown - decreased mass shootings, school shootings, toad tolls etc. you can’t swing an argument to just suit one side when it can equally suit the other side. Surely you’re better than that.
Do you honestly believe that the majority of people - both experts and laymen - in every other country are so lacking in intelligence that they haven’t academically considered these things, weighed the evidence and realised the scale of the pandemic and acted accordingly?
The reason for questioning the numbers is the CDC guidelines for classifying deaths as COVID. They stopped just short of saying everyone who clears their throat before dying is a COVID death. If we're going to have minute by minute ticker tape reporting of every death - can't we at least use testing as the criteria?
But putting that aside - the numbers are still nowhere near what was predicted. Facts Matter gets slammed because the deaths will likely go over 61,000 (or whatever) by the same people who predicted millions of deaths. When the full results are in he might be off by 5% while the CORONA fans will be off by over 97%.
Obviously you are basing facetious which doesn’t help matters - that is not how Covid deaths are classified. If COViD is medically indicated that will be noted on the death certificate. Flu deaths are also based on “flu like illness” without testing. The CDC prepare flu numbers - why do you trust their reasoning there but not for COVID?
And no one is a Corona Fan - people the world over have adjusted their behaviours and numbers have not reached what was predicted. It’s not a stretch to believe that altered behaviour altered predictions. Thankfully.
Facts Matter has actually said a few times they don’t dispute the numbers. Bad Wigans repeatedly says the numbers are cooked - my point is they are no more/ no less “cooked” than any other numbers public health authorities release. All have inbuilt flaws that are obviously outweighed by looking at the picture as a whole and making informed judgments based on world wide studies and knowledge. This is not an American thing. It’s world wide. The Democrats and Republicans are not calling the shots world wide. You are basically saying that the whole population of the world has been “duped” - pragmatically speaking what is more likely? Duping the whole world or a small group of Americans have the answer and it was nothing to worry about all along?
54,000 Americans who had heard of COVID19 have died.
Shut down the nation.
Think About It wrote:
Obviously you are basing facetious which doesn’t help matters - that is not how Covid deaths are classified. If COViD is medically indicated that will be noted on the death certificate. Flu deaths are also based on “flu like illness” without testing. The CDC prepare flu numbers - why do you trust their reasoning there but not for COVID?
And no one is a Corona Fan - people the world over have adjusted their behaviours and numbers have not reached what was predicted. It’s not a stretch to believe that altered behaviour altered predictions. Thankfully.
Facts Matter has actually said a few times they don’t dispute the numbers. Bad Wigans repeatedly says the numbers are cooked - my point is they are no more/ no less “cooked” than any other numbers public health authorities release. All have inbuilt flaws that are obviously outweighed by looking at the picture as a whole and making informed judgments based on world wide studies and knowledge. This is not an American thing. It’s world wide. The Democrats and Republicans are not calling the shots world wide. You are basically saying that the whole population of the world has been “duped” - pragmatically speaking what is more likely? Duping the whole world or a small group of Americans have the answer and it was nothing to worry about all along?
To me it's as simple as in the past there has been no financial benefit to doctors or hospitals to code a death as any specific flu. Currently there is huge financial incentive s that can be gained to list someone as a Covid 19 death, and even more incentive to place anyone who has breathing issues on a ventilator. If you don't think this can skew the numbers you are simply delusional.
Help me to understand? wrote:
Think About It wrote:
Obviously you are basing facetious which doesn’t help matters - that is not how Covid deaths are classified. If COViD is medically indicated that will be noted on the death certificate. Flu deaths are also based on “flu like illness” without testing. The CDC prepare flu numbers - why do you trust their reasoning there but not for COVID?
And no one is a Corona Fan - people the world over have adjusted their behaviours and numbers have not reached what was predicted. It’s not a stretch to believe that altered behaviour altered predictions. Thankfully.
Facts Matter has actually said a few times they don’t dispute the numbers. Bad Wigans repeatedly says the numbers are cooked - my point is they are no more/ no less “cooked” than any other numbers public health authorities release. All have inbuilt flaws that are obviously outweighed by looking at the picture as a whole and making informed judgments based on world wide studies and knowledge. This is not an American thing. It’s world wide. The Democrats and Republicans are not calling the shots world wide. You are basically saying that the whole population of the world has been “duped” - pragmatically speaking what is more likely? Duping the whole world or a small group of Americans have the answer and it was nothing to worry about all along?
To me it's as simple as in the past there has been no financial benefit to doctors or hospitals to code a death as any specific flu. Currently there is huge financial incentive s that can be gained to list someone as a Covid 19 death, and even more incentive to place anyone who has breathing issues on a ventilator. If you don't think this can skew the numbers you are simply delusional.
False
coronasceptic wrote:
The reason for questioning the numbers is the CDC guidelines for classifying deaths as COVID. They stopped just short of saying everyone who clears their throat before dying is a COVID death. If we're going to have minute by minute ticker tape reporting of every death - can't we at least use testing as the criteria?
This is a complete misrepresentation. The CDC guidelines just state the you can clinically diagnose somebody. You know, just like with every other disease.
time to move on wrote:
Allen53 wrote:
April 25, 2020
Medical updates
Video: The Californian physician Dr. Dan Erickson described his observations regarding Covid19 in a press conference. Hospitals and intensive care units in California and other states have remained largely empty so far. Based on the respective positive test rates, Dr. Erickson calculates that the lethality rate of Covid19 is currently 0.03% in California, 0.05% in Spain, 0.09% in Sweden and 0.1% in New York State, while the lethality rate of the flu in the USA is around 0.13%. (Note: the positive test rate cannot reflect local „hotspot effects“). The probability of surviving Covid19 without symptoms or with mild symptoms is over 95%. Dr. Erickson reports that doctors from several US states have been „pressured“ to issue death certificates mentioning Covid19, even though they themselves did not agree. Dr. Erickson argues that lockdowns and fear weaken people’s immune system and health. There has already been a marked increase in „secondary effects“ such as alcoholism, depression, suicide, and abuse of children and spouses. Dr Erickson recommends that only the sick and not the healthy or the whole society should be quarantined. A mouthguard only makes sense in acute situations such as in hospital, but not in everyday life, according to Dr. Erickson
Professor Detlef Krüger, the direct predecessor of the well-known German virologist Christian Drosten at the Charité Clinic in Berlin, explains in a recent interview that Covid19 is „in many respects comparable to the flu“ and „no more dangerous than certain variants of the flu virus“.
Professor Krüger considers the „mouth and nose protection discovered by politicians“ to be „actionism“ and a potential „germ-slinger“. At the same time he warns of „massive collateral damage“ caused by the measures taken.
Swiss pathologists have come to the conclusion that many of the test-positive deceased did not suffer from pneumonia, but had a disorder of the blood vessels and thus of the oxygen exchange in the lungs. This could explain why the ventilation of critical Covid19 patients is often not effective and why patients with existing cardiovascular problems belong to the risk group. In fact, all of the autopsied patients suffered from high blood pressure, a large proportion were severely overweight (obese) and two thirds had pre-damaged coronary arteries.
The latest figures from Italy show (pp. 12/13) that 60 of almost 17,000 doctors and nurses who tested positive died. This results in a Covid19 lethality rate of less than 0.1% for those under 50, 0.27% for those aged 50 to 60, 1.4% for those aged 60 to 70, and 12.6% for those aged 70 to 80. Even these figures are likely too high, as these are deaths with and not necessarily from corona viruses, and as up to 80% of people remain asymptomatic and some may not have been tested.
Overall, however, the values are in line with those from e.g. South Korea and give a lethality rate for the general population in the range of influenza.
The head of the Italian Civil Defence declared in mid-April that more than 1800 people died in nursing homes in Lombardy, and that in many cases the cause of death was not yet clear. It was already known beforehand that the care of the elderly and nursing homes and, as a result, the entire health care system in parts of Lombardy had collapsed, in part due to fear of the virus and the lockdown.
The latest figures from Belgium show that there too, just over 50% of all additional deaths occur in nursing homes, which do not benefit from a general lockdown. In 6% of these deaths Covid19 was „confirmed“, in 94% of the deaths it was „suspected“. About 70% of the test-positive persons (employees and residents) showed no symptoms.
The former Swedish and European chief epidemiologist Professor Johan Giesecke gave the Austrian magazine Addendum a candid interview. Professor Giesecke says that 75 to 90% of the epidemic is „invisible“ because that many people develop no or hardly any symptoms. A lockdown would therefore be „pointless“ and harm society. The basis of the Swedish strategy was that „people are not stupid“. Giesecke expects a death rate between 0.1 and 0.2%, similar to that of influenza. Italy and New York had been very poorly prepared for the virus and had not protected their risk groups, Professor Giesecke argues.
The British Guardian cites new studies according to which air pollution could be a „key factor“ in Covid19 deaths. For example, 80% of deaths in four countries were in the most polluted regions (including Lombardy and Madrid).
The German newspaper DIE ZEIT focuses on the high vacancy rates in German hospitals, which in some departments are as high as 70%. Even cancer examinations and organ transplants that were not acutely necessary for survival had been cancelled to make room for Covid19 patients, but these have so far been largely absent.
In Germany, a mask requirement was introduced in public transport and in retail outlets. The president of the World Medical Association, Frank Montgomery, has criticized this as „wrong“ and the intended use of scarves and drapes as „ridiculous“. In fact, studies show that the use of masks in everyday life does not bring measurable benefits to healthy and asymptomatic people, which is why the Swiss infectiologist Dr. Vernazza spoke of a „media hype“. Other critics speak of a symbol of „forced, publicly visible obedience“.
In 2019, a WHO study found „little to no scientific evidence“ for the effectiveness of measures such as „social distancing“, travel restrictions and lockdowns. (Original study)
A German laboratory stated in early April that according to WHO recommendations, Covid19 virus tests are now considered positive even if the specific target sequence of the Covid19 virus is negative and only the more general corona virus target sequence is positive. However, this can lead to other corona viruses (cold viruses) also trigger a false positive test result. The laboratory also explained that Covid19 antibodies are often only detectable two to three weeks after the onset of symptoms. This must be taken into account so that the actual number of people already immune to Covid19 is not underestimated.
In both Switzerland and Germany, some politicians have called for „compulsory vaccination against corona“. However, the vaccination against the so-called „swine flu“ of 2009/2010, for example, led to sometimes severe neurological damage, especially in children, and to claims for damages in the millions.
Professor Christopher Kuhbandner: About the lack of scientific justification for the corona measures: „The reported figures on new infections very dramatically overestimate the true spread of the corona virus. The observed rapid increase in new infections is almost exclusively due to the fact that the number of tests has increased rapidly over time (see figure below). So, at least according to the reported figures, there was in reality never an exponential spread of the coronavirus. The reported figures on new infections hide the fact that the number of new infections has been decreasing since about early or mid-March.“
https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/No one is going to read all of that. And no one cares anymore. You are just talking to yourselves at this point.
+1
Also, neutral observers take note of how much more ‘information’ people on one side dish up in order to make their ‘argument’.
Bad Wigins wrote:
zxcvzcxv wrote:
The United States is at 54,000
That is absolutely false. Full stop. Come back from that alternate universe where people who die of other things are dying of covid-19 just because they happen (or are suspected or assumed) to be infected with sars-cov2.
54,000 people have not been killed by covid disease in the US. It is far less.
So what is the real number then? Please tell us and provide a source. And if no one is in agreement about the number of deaths this entire discussion seems pointless.