Let's talk Ohio HS XC

Belay that. Kilbourne at full strength is going to be too much to handle. Westerville North might have a chance. But I still predict a 1 point victory over them. We shall soon see.

Cmon dude, stop trolling. Trolling is not good for this serious discussion forum. Please stop

It must be your first day on LetsRun.com. There has never been a serious discussion forum on this website.

Hey guys, just curious if anyone had insight on the Watkins Memorial Course (McGowan Invit.). I’m doing a project and comparing courses but never been out that way. Does it run fast or an honest course so to speak?

Hehe…..that course is wild to say the least. It’s different now to what it was a few years ago. Tons of woods portions, not sure what the start looks like now but it used to be long and narrow. Definitely not known as a super fast course especially if the weather isn’t sunny. I know some people will remember the 2018 meet, where there was a knee deep pond that formed on the course due to the rain

District course for many years. Slightly different this year with construction in progress on the previous starting plain... start now runs diagonally from the east-west gravel road toward the NE corner of the soccer field, then west around a back field and before rejoining the usual course just before entering the woods. With the mile mark in the same position as previous years, it "felt like" the new start added 5 sec or so to first mile (no science, just gut in that estimate).

The course generally runs fast in dry conditions, with good competition. The tree cover helps, especially in the afternoon. The guys generally like the course. When wet and sloppy, the kids seem to like the course even more!

Over the years, my analysis has the dry course at 0.6 to 0.8% faster than average... most similar to the HSB course and WN (the last times we ran them).

That sounds like an interesting project.

This is probably a TLDR post for most but so be it. I have a lot of interest in the history of the sport in Ohio so this is interesting to me.

You should include something that looks at the fastest and slowest courses in the state.

A good candidate for fastest would have to be Hilliard Darby. That was the course that Zach Kreft won the MMOC on in 2017 with a time of 14:29 over Dustin Horter who came in with a time of 14:36. In the girls' race that same year, Chloe Dawson won in 17:26 over Taylor Ewert 17:34, and Sam Bush 17:36.

There was a lot of debate over the legitimacy of the distance but the course is as flat as a pool table and it was a nice fall day so the times could be legitimate. The meet was moved from Bradley to Darby that year due to construction at Bradley. IIRC, it was only held at Darby that one year.

For the hardest course in the state you would have to consider the CVNP course in Peninsula where Woodridge hosts its Invitational. The Burning River ultra event that is held at the end of July and is primarily on trails in the CVNP area also includes parts of that course. I am unsure if it is used for any other meets.

Last year at the Woodridge meet there were only 8 guys that managed to get under 18:00 and only 2 girls broke 21:00. The course records are held by Bay's Michael Bradjic with an amazing time for that course of 16:23. Andrew Jordan of Watkins Memorial also ran there and may have gotten under 17:00. Olympian Bridget Frank of Crestwood has the record for the girls of 19:07.

You should also look at some of the "classic" courses in Ohio that are now rarely used but probably should be. I would look at Rapid Run Park on the west side of Cincinnati. Elder used to host a meet there and run some duels there back in the day. Oak Hills also used the course. I don't believe that it is used at all anymore.

Goodyear Metro in Akron would also be a good one to look at. It is still occasionaly used but with the advent of the Silver Creek Park course (site of the Great Lakes D1 Regional in 2024), Goodyear is now rarely used. It's a shame because it is a great course for the runners and spectators. Some leagues in the area used the course for league meets and still do and it was used for duel meets and district meets. U or Akron even used it years ago and included trails in the back woods and in the meadow around the water tower.

I agree on CVNP; a loaded iggy team averaged close to a 2min average slower on that course compared with Tiffin Carnival in 2021; (low 16’s to low 18s).
-which tiffin is an enigma in itself depending on how soft the “lower bowl” portion gets.

I would throw in Berlin as being one of the fastest - but I personally have wheeled that and got 4,991 meters (running cleanest vectors ) but competition/ timing within season / completely level/- attribute to its speed.

4991 meters is pretty good.

I'm actually fine with courses being any length as long as they're denoted as such. Don't call a 2.9 mile or 3 mile course, a 5000 meter course. If courses are 3 miles and everyone thinks they're really a 5K it will give a false sense of preparedness to the athletes and coaches. I am fine with a 4990 or a a 5010 meter course being called a 5000. Probably even a little more than that. What is the allowable deviation?

This is again another reason why kids need to race against their opponents and not the clock.

Courses in Ohio are to be not longer than 5000M.

So theoretically if a course was found to be 5010 meters, what could happen to the coaches/meet directors?

I wouldn't think that a coach would wheel the course, find it to be 10 meters too long, and then make a stink about it. Actually I shouldn't say that because I have seen coaches upset about things much more trivial than that. There are some uptight coaches out there.

Girls:
1. Hilliard Davidson
2. Lakota West
3. Mason
4. Avon
5. Perrysburg
6. Shaker Heights
7. Westlake
8. Loveland
9. Beavercreek
10. Olentangy Liberty

Boys:
1. Mason
2. Dublin Coffman
3. Massillon Jackson
4. Westerville North
5. St Xavier
6. Lancaster
7. Worthington Kilbourne
8. Dublin Jerome
9. Medina
10. Olentangy Orange

oatccc.com

Cross Country Coaches Poll

iTrack llc, Brian Diamond

The Mideast Cross Country Championships presents the best 12 high school men and women senior runners from Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio and other area states.

Open link

I can't imagine there would be any repercussions... you can get much more than 10m of variation on our course (likely any course) depending on how well you run the tangents.

Coach.... my understanding is that you've done a lot of data analysis on courses around Lancaster and central OH. Would you share your adjusters for each course? I think I remember a post of yours once in which you had data like... TW's Eisenhart tends to be a -10 second course, your course a +15 second one, Watkins is even, etc, etc.

I'm just curious about your results, if I'm remembering correctly. Perhaps it was the Coffman coach though -?

I think a lot of fans sense the variations in courses and their impact on times, but without data. I'd be interested to see what you've found over the years.

I would like to think that there would not be repercussions wither but the OHSAA has cracked down on some pretty trivial things in the past.

I was thinking about my post earlier and was wondering if Chloe Dawson got some sort of injury at Ohio State. I was certain that she was going to develop into another standout in the long line of standouts that have come out of Ohio over the years.

From that same year, Sam Bush has had a great career at NC State and, I believe, is in her last year of eligibility this season. Taylor Ewert has been beset with injuries while at Arkansas but has transferred to Michigan State and will hopefully get a reset there. I don't know what her remaining eligibility is.

It's looking like the next big talent that will be coming out of Ohio, assuming that she keeps on improving and stays injury free, will be Evelyn Prodoehl of Lakota West. She already has run 17:29, 17:22, & 17:13 on legitimate 5K courses. She is just a junior and has a good team to back her up.

I think North should be 2. They know Gableman didn’t run last week right?

"The Coffman coach" is the man when it comes to this kind of analysis. I hesitate to even post my estimates...

In any case, here's what I came up with for the meets on our 2022 schedule:

Northmont +1.1%

Dewines - 0.3% (based on 2021, cancelled due to storm in 2022)

Watkins -0.8%

Belpre +0.2%

Lancaster +1.1% (I expected more like 2%, magic happens when the field is elite)

SNL -1.6% (course can be even faster with smaller races)

Unioto - 2.1%

Newark +0.5%

Darby -0.9% (???, consistently -2.5ish% over the years, Darby reports no change)

Pick North ~0.1 (can't explain this one for 2022, typically +2.5ish; +~6% in the 2021 mud)

Fortress ??? can account for the afternoon temps, can't account for 30mph wind, gusts to 60mph