This thread was deleted by a volunteer moderator. I certainly don't want a thread this big deleted so I've restored. THat being said, this thread has served it's purpose. I've closed it to new posts.
We have a new 2024 vaccine thread here. New people don't need to try to wade through 20,000 posts to figure out what is going on.
1) There were trials of the mRNA vax in pregnant women and children. They just came later
2) Lots of non scientists seem to think that most clinical trials follow people for years to determine if drugs are safe. This is not true, especially if the drug is a single dose that rapidly clears the body (I.e. vaccines). Even the people lying about tons of cardiac deaths usually claim they happen within a few months of the last dose!
3. Obviously the trial was unblinded. You can’t force people to stay on the placebo control when it’s demonstrated that the vaccine works so well. That’s highly, highly unethical. You’re basically demanding that people 10X their COVID risk to satisfy your extreme vaccine skepticism.
The CDC has published many reports about risk of adverse events after mRNA vaccines. Independent scientists have as well. For example, there was a recent report showing again that myocarditis is less common after vaccination that COVID infection for all ages.
Did you read it and change your mind? No.
I read that report. As a result, I did not list myocarditis as an alleged adverse event. I still want to see data on all the other illnesses by vaccination status by week (or month) of diagnosis. It would be relatively easy to sort the codes for newly diagnosed heart disease by vaccine status by week of diagnosis, for example.
Since you believe that adverse effects are rare, you should join me in asking for the CDC to gather and release these data.
These kind of data are poorly controlled and subject to lots of confounders. That’s why safety is assessed in trials or controlled observational studies. The downside is that these studies take time and money and effort to produce. The good news is that their are countless studies showing now sign of significantly serious adverse effects happening.
You seem to be demanding that scientists provide the data in a format that would allow an unsophisticated, error prone interpretation.
Do you have a degree or training in epidemiology that would allow you to properly assess such raw data? Do you understand the pitfalls of trying to do this math yourself if you’re not properly educated?
I read that report. As a result, I did not list myocarditis as an alleged adverse event. I still want to see data on all the other illnesses by vaccination status by week (or month) of diagnosis. It would be relatively easy to sort the codes for newly diagnosed heart disease by vaccine status by week of diagnosis, for example.
Since you believe that adverse effects are rare, you should join me in asking for the CDC to gather and release these data.
These kind of data are poorly controlled and subject to lots of confounders. That’s why safety is assessed in trials or controlled observational studies. The downside is that these studies take time and money and effort to produce. The good news is that their are countless studies showing now sign of significantly serious adverse effects happening.
You seem to be demanding that scientists provide the data in a format that would allow an unsophisticated, error prone interpretation.
Do you have a degree or training in epidemiology that would allow you to properly assess such raw data? Do you understand the pitfalls of trying to do this math yourself if you’re not properly educated?
The last refuge of the conspiracy folks is a demand for data that confirms their priors… it’s so transparent.
For those of you who just can't wait to get another booster. Don't do it.
“I warned more jabs can result in what’s called high zone tolerance ... and now we have data that clearly demonstrate that’s occurring in the case of this as well as some other vaccines ...” - Dr. Robert Malone
For those of you who just can't wait to get another booster. Don't do it.
“I warned more jabs can result in what’s called high zone tolerance ... and now we have data that clearly demonstrate that’s occurring in the case of this as well as some other vaccines ...” - Dr. Robert Malone
For those of you who just can't wait to get another booster. Don't do it.
“I warned more jabs can result in what’s called high zone tolerance ... and now we have data that clearly demonstrate that’s occurring in the case of this as well as some other vaccines ...” - Dr. Robert Malone
"Super vaccinated" LMAO! What will antivaxxers come up next in this 3 year circus act?
The guy who supports the establishment that created terms like antivaxxer, vaccine hesitancy, super spreaders, pandemic of the unvaxxed, jab, etc. is critical of this. That's called delicious irony.
"Super vaccinated" LMAO! What will antivaxxers come up next in this 3 year circus act?
The guy who supports the establishment that created terms like antivaxxer, vaccine hesitancy, super spreaders, pandemic of the unvaxxed, jab, etc. is critical of this. That's called delicious irony.
antivaxxers have been a thing well before COVID. Marin county hippie lefty moms were the first. It's just come full circle to be a right wing issue because the establishment is scary now and it makes chronically paranoid people satisfied to have new things to blame for issues in life.
"Super vaccinated" LMAO! What will antivaxxers come up next in this 3 year circus act?
The guy who supports the establishment that created terms like antivaxxer, vaccine hesitancy, super spreaders, pandemic of the unvaxxed, jab, etc. is critical of this. That's called delicious irony.
"Super Spreader" my favorite. Should we prepare for a 4th consecutive year of widespread illness and death as a result of the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally ?
Looking back, it's still distressing for me to know that Millions were fooled by idiotic establishment propaganda. The CNN death dashboard. The "safe and effective" mantra. The brother-in-law of a guy somebody works with who was unvaxxed and "got Covid real bad".
Most of those same people don't want to talk about it now.
During the vaccine roll-out when we were told they are safe and effective and prevented the spread and we were being pressured to take the jab, I was arguing that if Big Pharma waived their protection against legal liability that would go a long ways to getting rid of resistance to the vaccines. We were assured the jabs were safe -- why wouldn't Big Pharma give up accept legal liability. You know stand behind their product, put their money where their mouths are,
During the vaccine roll-out when we were told they are safe and effective and prevented the spread and we were being pressured to take the jab, I was arguing that if Big Pharma waived their protection against legal liability that would go a long ways to getting rid of resistance to the vaccines. We were assured the jabs were safe -- why wouldn't Big Pharma give up accept legal liability. You know stand behind their product, put their money where their mouths are,
Big pharma has been exempted from specific types of legal claims around vaccines since the 1980s. There is a federal system in place to deal such claims instead.
We told you this 2 years ago... youre just boring now.
During the vaccine roll-out when we were told they are safe and effective and prevented the spread and we were being pressured to take the jab, I was arguing that if Big Pharma waived their protection against legal liability that would go a long ways to getting rid of resistance to the vaccines. We were assured the jabs were safe -- why wouldn't Big Pharma give up accept legal liability. You know stand behind their product, put their money where their mouths are,
Big pharma has been exempted from specific types of legal claims around vaccines since the 1980s. There is a federal system in place to deal such claims instead.
We told you this 2 years ago... youre just boring now.
Did you know that on December 31, 2020, 99.86% of all Americans who should have been alive on that day were, in fact, alive ?
I told you that 2 years ago... you're just boring now.
Big pharma has been exempted from specific types of legal claims around vaccines since the 1980s. There is a federal system in place to deal such claims instead.
We told you this 2 years ago... youre just boring now.
Did you know that on December 31, 2020, 99.86% of all Americans who should have been alive on that day were, in fact, alive ?
I told you that 2 years ago... you're just boring now.
Did you know that as of today, 99.9999999% of the people who should have been alive after taking the “safe and effective” mRNA vaccines are, in fact, alive?
These kind of data are poorly controlled and subject to lots of confounders. That’s why safety is assessed in trials or controlled observational studies. The downside is that these studies take time and money and effort to produce. The good news is that their are countless studies showing now sign of significantly serious adverse effects happening.
You seem to be demanding that scientists provide the data in a format that would allow an unsophisticated, error prone interpretation.
Do you have a degree or training in epidemiology that would allow you to properly assess such raw data? Do you understand the pitfalls of trying to do this math yourself if you’re not properly educated?
For those readers who are still willing to look at both sides of this debate, this is an example of a logical fallicy called a faulty syllogism... if the minor premise is true, then the major premise is also true. The classic example of a faulty syllogism is "All rats are rodents. Therefore, all rodents are rats." This is incorrect. (Squirrels are rodents, for example, but they are not also rats.)
In this case, the minor premise (fisky doesn't have the skills to interpret the data) does not support the major premise, which is "therefore, no one in the entire world except the CDC has the ability to interpret the data."
Interestingly, the implied major premise here (only the CDC or clinical trials can evaluate data) is also a logical fallacy called an Appeal to Authority.
Everyone who believes the vaccine is safe should be supporting my position to make the data available because if the vaccine is safe, then the data should disprove my concerns.
Did you know that on December 31, 2020, 99.86% of all Americans who should have been alive on that day were, in fact, alive ?
I told you that 2 years ago... you're just boring now.
Did you know that as of today, 99.9999999% of the people who should have been alive after taking the “safe and effective” mRNA vaccines are, in fact, alive?
I know 3 of them who just got over the worst cold of their lives. Heavy congestion with relentless coughing. I remained healthy and well. Go figure.
These kind of data are poorly controlled and subject to lots of confounders. That’s why safety is assessed in trials or controlled observational studies. The downside is that these studies take time and money and effort to produce. The good news is that their are countless studies showing now sign of significantly serious adverse effects happening.
You seem to be demanding that scientists provide the data in a format that would allow an unsophisticated, error prone interpretation.
Do you have a degree or training in epidemiology that would allow you to properly assess such raw data? Do you understand the pitfalls of trying to do this math yourself if you’re not properly educated?
For those readers who are still willing to look at both sides of this debate, this is an example of a logical fallicy called a faulty syllogism... if the minor premise is true, then the major premise is also true. The classic example of a faulty syllogism is "All rats are rodents. Therefore, all rodents are rats." This is incorrect. (Squirrels are rodents, for example, but they are not also rats.)
In this case, the minor premise (fisky doesn't have the skills to interpret the data) does not support the major premise, which is "therefore, no one in the entire world except the CDC has the ability to interpret the data."
Interestingly, the implied major premise here (only the CDC or clinical trials can evaluate data) is also a logical fallacy called an Appeal to Authority.
Everyone who believes the vaccine is safe should be supporting my position to make the data available because if the vaccine is safe, then the data should disprove my concerns.
I haven’t looked at any studies under discussion, but I don’t see how you arrived at this, Fisky. The poster asked if you have training in epidemiology. So it’s implied that such training is the baseline for one to properly interpret the data. That may or may not be correct, but given the large % of epidemiologists not actually in the employ of the CDC, the “therefore, no one in the entire world except the CDC has the ability …” strikes me as a gross misreading on your part. You even seem to tacitly acknowledge how limited that misreading is when you proceed a step a further along to “only the CDC and clinical trials can evaluate ….”
I haven’t seen enough to render much judgment one way or the other, but if you’re looking to bolster your case for others to have confidence in your own interpretation skills or in your ability to locate those adept at interpretation of epidemiological data, it doesn’t seem that this post is doing you any favors. Thanks for the logic lesson, though.
For those readers who are still willing to look at both sides of this debate, this is an example of a logical fallicy called a faulty syllogism... if the minor premise is true, then the major premise is also true. The classic example of a faulty syllogism is "All rats are rodents. Therefore, all rodents are rats." This is incorrect. (Squirrels are rodents, for example, but they are not also rats.)
In this case, the minor premise (fisky doesn't have the skills to interpret the data) does not support the major premise, which is "therefore, no one in the entire world except the CDC has the ability to interpret the data."
Interestingly, the implied major premise here (only the CDC or clinical trials can evaluate data) is also a logical fallacy called an Appeal to Authority.
Everyone who believes the vaccine is safe should be supporting my position to make the data available because if the vaccine is safe, then the data should disprove my concerns.
I haven’t looked at any studies under discussion, but I don’t see how you arrived at this, Fisky. The poster asked if you have training in epidemiology. So it’s implied that such training is the baseline for one to properly interpret the data. That may or may not be correct, but given the large % of epidemiologists not actually in the employ of the CDC, the “therefore, no one in the entire world except the CDC has the ability …” strikes me as a gross misreading on your part. You even seem to tacitly acknowledge how limited that misreading is when you proceed a step a further along to “only the CDC and clinical trials can evaluate ….”
I haven’t seen enough to render much judgment one way or the other, but if you’re looking to bolster your case for others to have confidence in your own interpretation skills or in your ability to locate those adept at interpretation of epidemiological data, it doesn’t seem that this post is doing you any favors. Thanks for the logic lesson, though.
Ok, but, at the same time, I think what Fisky is saying and I agree with him, is that the CDC hasn’t produced or collated all the data, which should’ve been easy to do, even if it’s all muddled NOW, because we have reached population level immunity through either infection or vaccination or both. There really is no control group anymore, though I would argue that we, unvaccinated, and “somehow survived” without any ill effects whatsoever are the true control group. You cannot find what you are unwilling to look for.
What’s frustrating to me is there are lots of excess deaths in both Australia and the UK due to idiopathic cardiac episodes. This is from actuaries, not the government. I know three, very fit friends in their early 50s who all died suddenly in the last four months of “cardiac episodes.” All vaccinated. Every one of them. Ok, the counter argument is always, that’s anecdotal, that’s only an “n of 3,” Covid itself is way more responsible for cardiomyopathy than the vaccine (according to just a few published reports). But, it’s just plain weird. Couple that with stuff like, my bullet proof mother didn’t actually get Covid until after her fourth shot, and she still hasn’t recovered her former self, has some long Covid stuff. Of course, in my mind, there is very likely a correlation between the vaccines and long Covid, but nobody is looking for it, certainly not the CDC. Meanwhile, all of my unvaccinated friends and family have all fared the best. At some point, the anecdotes become too loud to ignore.
The CDC is not infallible. Perhaps very ironic and timely, once upon a time, they visited Incline Village, NV to investigate an epidemic of a new illness eventually called chronic fatigue syndrome. Almost clinically identical to long Covid. They basically punted and said “nothing to see here, psychological illness.” Investigative journalist Hillary Johnson dug into this and exposed all of it. Look it up.
So, you can’t blame people for being cynical. The way our public health experts handled this entire pandemic is going to undermine subsequent public health efforts for years. But I guess I have to worry about my own cardiomyopathy, autoimmune disease, and lack of robust protection against dementia due to being unvaccinated. Yawn. This thread really is boring, and nobody is convincing anyone else. Time for the BroJos to end it.
The guy who supports the establishment that created terms like antivaxxer, vaccine hesitancy, super spreaders, pandemic of the unvaxxed, jab, etc. is critical of this. That's called delicious irony.
"Super Spreader" my favorite. Should we prepare for a 4th consecutive year of widespread illness and death as a result of the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally ?
Looking back, it's still distressing for me to know that Millions were fooled by idiotic establishment propaganda. The CNN death dashboard. The "safe and effective" mantra. The brother-in-law of a guy somebody works with who was unvaxxed and "got Covid real bad".
Most of those same people don't want to talk about it now.
Super spreaders was an idea before COVID. You know, the guy with Hep A at the meat counter or the kid with hand foot and mouth that infects the whole class.
Did you know that as of today, 99.9999999% of the people who should have been alive after taking the “safe and effective” mRNA vaccines are, in fact, alive?
I know 3 of them who just got over the worst cold of their lives. Heavy congestion with relentless coughing. I remained healthy and well. Go figure.
I got the COVID vaccines and am healthy and happy for 820 days and counting. You cannot take that from me.
I haven’t looked at any studies under discussion, but I don’t see how you arrived at this, Fisky. The poster asked if you have training in epidemiology. So it’s implied that such training is the baseline for one to properly interpret the data. That may or may not be correct, but given the large % of epidemiologists not actually in the employ of the CDC, the “therefore, no one in the entire world except the CDC has the ability …” strikes me as a gross misreading on your part. You even seem to tacitly acknowledge how limited that misreading is when you proceed a step a further along to “only the CDC and clinical trials can evaluate ….”
I haven’t seen enough to render much judgment one way or the other, but if you’re looking to bolster your case for others to have confidence in your own interpretation skills or in your ability to locate those adept at interpretation of epidemiological data, it doesn’t seem that this post is doing you any favors. Thanks for the logic lesson, though.
Ok, but, at the same time, I think what Fisky is saying and I agree with him, is that the CDC hasn’t produced or collated all the data, which should’ve been easy to do, even if it’s all muddled NOW, because we have reached population level immunity through either infection or vaccination or both. There really is no control group anymore, though I would argue that we, unvaccinated, and “somehow survived” without any ill effects whatsoever are the true control group. You cannot find what you are unwilling to look for.
What’s frustrating to me is there are lots of excess deaths in both Australia and the UK due to idiopathic cardiac episodes. This is from actuaries, not the government. I know three, very fit friends in their early 50s who all died suddenly in the last four months of “cardiac episodes.” All vaccinated. Every one of them. Ok, the counter argument is always, that’s anecdotal, that’s only an “n of 3,” Covid itself is way more responsible for cardiomyopathy than the vaccine (according to just a few published reports). But, it’s just plain weird. Couple that with stuff like, my bullet proof mother didn’t actually get Covid until after her fourth shot, and she still hasn’t recovered her former self, has some long Covid stuff. Of course, in my mind, there is very likely a correlation between the vaccines and long Covid, but nobody is looking for it, certainly not the CDC. Meanwhile, all of my unvaccinated friends and family have all fared the best. At some point, the anecdotes become too loud to ignore.
The CDC is not infallible. Perhaps very ironic and timely, once upon a time, they visited Incline Village, NV to investigate an epidemic of a new illness eventually called chronic fatigue syndrome. Almost clinically identical to long Covid. They basically punted and said “nothing to see here, psychological illness.” Investigative journalist Hillary Johnson dug into this and exposed all of it. Look it up.
So, you can’t blame people for being cynical. The way our public health experts handled this entire pandemic is going to undermine subsequent public health efforts for years. But I guess I have to worry about my own cardiomyopathy, autoimmune disease, and lack of robust protection against dementia due to being unvaccinated. Yawn. This thread really is boring, and nobody is convincing anyone else. Time for the BroJos to end it.
A lot of words to say nothing. The vaccine haters uniformly reject positive data and demand new data until they can twist something to fit their conspiracy. Get over it.
And yeah there is plenty for evidence that COVID infections drive much worse outcomes than vaccinations. But you don’t care… so why care about vaccines?
Let go of the bias. Embrace the rationality. You’ll be happier.
Ok, but, at the same time, I think what Fisky is saying and I agree with him, is that the CDC hasn’t produced or collated all the data, which should’ve been easy to do, even if it’s all muddled NOW, because we have reached population level immunity through either infection or vaccination or both. There really is no control group anymore, though I would argue that we, unvaccinated, and “somehow survived” without any ill effects whatsoever are the true control group. You cannot find what you are unwilling to look for.
What’s frustrating to me is there are lots of excess deaths in both Australia and the UK due to idiopathic cardiac episodes. This is from actuaries, not the government. I know three, very fit friends in their early 50s who all died suddenly in the last four months of “cardiac episodes.” All vaccinated. Every one of them. Ok, the counter argument is always, that’s anecdotal, that’s only an “n of 3,” Covid itself is way more responsible for cardiomyopathy than the vaccine (according to just a few published reports). But, it’s just plain weird. Couple that with stuff like, my bullet proof mother didn’t actually get Covid until after her fourth shot, and she still hasn’t recovered her former self, has some long Covid stuff. Of course, in my mind, there is very likely a correlation between the vaccines and long Covid, but nobody is looking for it, certainly not the CDC. Meanwhile, all of my unvaccinated friends and family have all fared the best. At some point, the anecdotes become too loud to ignore.
The CDC is not infallible. Perhaps very ironic and timely, once upon a time, they visited Incline Village, NV to investigate an epidemic of a new illness eventually called chronic fatigue syndrome. Almost clinically identical to long Covid. They basically punted and said “nothing to see here, psychological illness.” Investigative journalist Hillary Johnson dug into this and exposed all of it. Look it up.
So, you can’t blame people for being cynical. The way our public health experts handled this entire pandemic is going to undermine subsequent public health efforts for years. But I guess I have to worry about my own cardiomyopathy, autoimmune disease, and lack of robust protection against dementia due to being unvaccinated. Yawn. This thread really is boring, and nobody is convincing anyone else. Time for the BroJos to end it.
A lot of words to say nothing. The vaccine haters uniformly reject positive data and demand new data until they can twist something to fit their conspiracy. Get over it.
And yeah there is plenty for evidence that COVID infections drive much worse outcomes than vaccinations. But you don’t care… so why care about vaccines?
Let go of the bias. Embrace the rationality. You’ll be happier.
Are you saying the CDC hasn’t screwed up previous epidemics? That’s quite a charge. And wrong.
I don’t care about the Covid vaccines. How is that not obvious by now? I believe they were necessary for the elderly, obese, and diabetic, we knew that early, and everyone else should’ve had a choice. Even for those who refused and SHOULDN’T have, we still had treatments to mitigate worst outcomes that were fully ignored.
If people are dying of idiopathic heart disease some time on from being vaccinated, the “science” still isn’t settled.