how jakob produces his power however, will be different than how say, Seb Coe or Steve Cram produced theirs, and their styles and strengths bore that out, even when their avg speeds in are very close to the same
An 80 mL/kg/min Vo2max could result in a wide variation of 5k times. 20:00 5k runners are usually heavier than the average competitive runner and don't usually conduct Vo2max tests. Recorded Vo2max numbers are highly self selected due to the demographics of these subjects.
I bet if we search hard enough we could find 20:00 5k runners with such poor economy/form a such high Vo2max numbers that would make us question the whole existence of the measurement.
It's an oft-used and little understood term used by grad students to justify to their parents that their efforts and money have not gone to waste. University administrators have been duped by this sciolistic fog-machine, as well. How else could the waste of valuable resources, time and money, be covered-up? Parents and other intelligent, rational thinking adults could not possibly decipher this code. Do not try to yourself. You'll only make yourself look foolish reciting the catechism of the exercise-physio-geeks.
This nascent science of exercise physiology was born out of a failed genetics experiment in the early 60s: the breeding of an economist and a sociologist. The offspring of this pairing would say more and mean less than the combined blather of the two parents put together. Common sense would have told us how this experiment would have ended, but stubborn researchers pushed ahead nonetheless.
The only numbers that matter are the ones that you receive at the end of the race. The most important of these is called PLACE, and is represented as an ordinal. A '1' is the best indicator of your performance. If you get a '1' then you've done excellent. It's no small coincidence that '1' is a homophone for 'won'. Other excellent numbers to receive are '2' and '3'. Not nearly as good as a '1', but by tradition and convention the numbers '1', '2' and '3' are deemed to be the 'supreme ordinals'; that is to say, worthy of gold, silver and bronze, and are separated from the other ordinals. The rest of the ordinals are represented by the formula: n + 1...(to infinity). There is a direct, inverse relationship between ordinal value and its worth. The closer you get to the supreme ordinals, the better you've done, the closer you approach infinity, the worse you've done.
One of the other numbers that matters much more than VO2 Max is TIME. TIME is always secondary to PLACE in it's value. Neither PLACE nor TIME are given in the gerbil-wheel lab tests conducted by the exercise-physio-geeks. You will only receive them in the experiment that the real experts call COMPETITION. TIME does not supercede PLACE, but it is a way of comparing the PLACE of two or more experiments from different venues and eras. The juxtaposition of TIME and PLACE is the business of track statisticians, who, by the way, are also the progeny of the aforementioned failed genetics experiment.
Long ago, TIME was measured as a fraction of the earth's rotation in base 60: hours, minutes and seconds. It's still expressed as such, however, the predecessors to the exercise-physio-geeks have determined that TIME should now be measured in terms of the vibration frequency of irradiated Cesium atoms. Your watch has quartz crystals in it that will simulate this experiment for you (without the attendant radiation and disposal problems) and convert the results automatically, presenting them to you in the form of easily recognizable numerical glyphs. No complicated formulae to memorize! There are many other factors that are much more indicative of athletic performance, or the potential for performance, than VO2 max. I couldn't possibly begin to list them all: height, weight, hair color, skin color, shoe size, favorite TV show...the list is endless.
------------------------------------ What is VO2 max? Simply put, the oxygen consumption capacity of the body during exercise. It's value is expressed as: Volume of oxygen (O2) consumed, per Unit Body mass, per time interval or: milliliters O2/Kg body/minute. Check that out, two variables and one constant in the formula. Look at the denominator of the formula: Kg body mass. Want to improve VO2 max WITHOUT TRAINING? Lose weight.
At rest, the human body has a VO2 of 3-4 ml/kg/min. According to the Exercise-physio-geeks: Sedentary individuals have a VO2 max of 40-50. Trained grasshopper runners 55-65. Mantis runners 65-80, and Super-Mantis runners 84-92. The truth of the matter is that there are no distinct boundaries separating these groups. Many grasshopper runners have higher VO2 max (80s) than mantis and super-mantis runners. Many super-mantis runners have lower VO2 max (70s) values than the grasshoppers.
Take a sampling of runners with PR differences of just 2% in their specialties. For example, that would be three sets of athletes collected together like so: 1) 1500m (3:29.7-3:34.0) 2) 5000m (13:00-13:16) 3) 10,000m (26:57-27:30)
Now fly in exercise-physio-geeks from monasteries around the world and geek-out: treadmills, oxygen ventilators, calipers, rectal probes! Collect the data, crunch the numbers and what do you get? Sets of highly-trained runners with similar PRs (2% differentials) with VO2 max values that vary wildly: 10 to 15 percent (sometimes more)! Runners with slower PRs having higher VO2 max. How is that predictive of performance?
As a broad generalization, I'll agree that trained runners will have higher VO2 max than the sedentary. That is called the common sense doctrine. We teach that Kung Fu at the Shaolin monastery. Within sampling sets of like-performing athletes, there is no direct correlation.
92.5 Greg LeMond, professional cyclist 92.0 Matt Carpenter, Pikes Peak marathon course record holder 88.0 Miguel Indurain, professional cyclist 84.4 Steve Prefontaine,US runner 73.0 Jeff Galloway, US Runner 72.8 Jarmila Krotochvilova,Czech Olympian 400M/800M winner 71.3 Frank Shorter, US Olympic Marathon winner 71.2 Ingrid Kristiansen, ex-Marathon World Record Holder 71.0 Paula Ivan, Russian Olympic 1500M Record Holder 69.7 Derek Clayton, Australian ex-Marathon World Record holder 67.2 Rosa Mota, Marathon runner ---------------------------------------- RUNNING PREDICTS RUNNING BETTER THAN PHYSIOLOGY Noakes, T. D., Myburgh, K. H., & Schall, R. (1990). Peak treadmill running velocity during VO2max test predicts running performance. Journal of Sports Sciences, 8, 35-45. Marathon runners (N = 20) and ultra-marathoners (N = 23) were tested for VO2max, peak treadmill running velocity, velocity at lactate turnpoint, and VO2 at 16 km/h using an incremental (1 min) treadmill test. Results. Race times at 10, 21.1, and 42.2 km of the specialist marathoners were faster than those of the ultra-marathoners, however, only the 10 km time differed significantly. Lactate turnpoint occurred at 77.4% of VO2max and at 74.7% of peak treadmill velocity. The average VO2 at 16 km/h was 51.2 ml/kg/min which represented 78.5% of VO2max. For all distances, performance time in other races was the best predictor of performance (r = .95 to .98). The best laboratory predictors were: (a) peak treadmill running velocity (r = -.89 to -.94); (b) running velocity at lactate turnpoint (r = -.91 to -.93); and (c) fractional use of VO2max at 16 km/h (r = .86 to .90). The predictive value of the lactate turnpoint measure increased as the distance increased. The poorest predictors were: VO2max (r = -.55 to -.81) and VO2 at 16 km/h (r = .40 to .45). Conclusion. There may be no unique physiological characteristics that distinguish elite long-distance (10 km or longer) runners as is often promoted. Other factors determine success in high level sports among exclusive groups of superior athletes. Implication. Running performance is the best predictor of running capability in elite long-distance runners. Physiological laboratory testing gives less information than does actual performance. Even the fastest speed of running on the treadmill is a better predictor than any physiological measure. This suggests that for at least endurance-dominated sports, actual performances in a variety of performance-specific situations will give more useful information than that which can be obtained in any physiology laboratory test. ------------------------------------------ As I've said in the satire above, "VO2 max doesn't mean anything."
This trope goes back to Lydiard. I am unconvinced that low pH destroys aerobic capacity and am certain that threshold and sub threshold work does nothing but add to aerobic capacity.
I think, that the “drop” of aerobic capacity seen with anaerobic work is a function of the fact that when you work a aerobically, you can spend far less TIME at your optimal training intensity for aerobic development.
if you spend your training energy doing too much of B, it’s hard to be as good at doing A. It’s just that simple.
I agree! But there is a benefit to improving aerobic capacity. One aspect that gets lost when coaches talk about bioenergetics is soft tissue adaptations. Spending a lot of time working on sub threshold and threshold paces and doing a lot of volume at this work is going to strengthen tendons and ligaments. When it’s time to ‘sharpen’ up for big races you’ll be able to handle more anaerobic work without breaking down/getting injured. For example: Jakob does 25x400m at 10k/5k pace with 30s rest. Then we hear about him doing 20x400m at 55/56s. Sure, the first workout gets him in shape aerobically to do the latter, but his soft tissue and bones can handle it because of the lighter work done for months beforehand.
So i guess the Norwegian federation is spending so much time measuring VO2 Max because its a waste of time to focus on it?
Fractional utilization was pointed to. How many of those 80 ml/g 20:00 5k runners have a high fractional utilization of their VO2 max?
In Jakobs case, he's likely over 90% Vo2 max at LT2. His compressed domains at the top end while still turning over massive amounts of energy is why this guy is so incredibly powerful, even if his base speed isnt the fastest ever. His speed seems to actually be his limiter. No way he could have outkicked Coe/Cram and company in their prime. But again, all their metabolic profiles would be dramatically different at a pretty basic level.
It means that he can maintain a metabolic state that is closer to his vO2 max. Theoretically, his "oxygen uptake" isn't changing at all, he's just using oxygen more efficiently.
Yes, but how?
We must explain the how. The how is the skill part that endurance coaches keep ignoring.
“Using oxygen more efficiently is probably a poor description”.
If your lactate threshold occurs at 70% of Vo2 max and then improves to occur at 80% of max (VO2 max remains constant) then what happened? Is it running efficiency by improving your skills? No, running efficiency would decrease the amount of O2 used at a given pace. So, your lactate threshold PACE would improve, but that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about percentage of VO2 max.
Let’s say VO2 max is 100 somehow. Why are you now able to use 80 ml/kg/min of O2 at your threshold when previously you could only use 70? Well, probably for the same reason people use sodium bicarbonate and beta-Alanine (or topical carnosine). Your buffering abilities become better. There are also enzymes that shuttle lactate both in and out of the cells so it can be recycled faster. Maybe your ability to exhale CO2 to increase pH gets better (I just made the last part up- don’t know if that really happens).
You are always producing some lactate and H+ ions. So for some people, at 70% VO2 max, the amount of lactate and H+ becomes more than what their body can process and recycle (or get rid of). So lactate levels start to rapidly rise and many call that the “threshold”. But then, you get better at buffering and recycling (for example muscle carnosine levels increase, your enzymes change (I’m forgetting them- LDH, MCT-1, MCT-4??) and basically now you can produce more lactate and H+ (the amount you produce at 80%) without the levels rising. It’s like if you’re filling up a bathtub with the drain open- the water levels will start to rise when the amount of water coming in, exceeds the amount of water draining out. If you get a bigger drain, it will take more water coming in for water levels to rise. (Not a perfect analogy because lactate doesn’t leave- it gets recycled, and you also have H+ and overall pH which can also be increased by getting rid of CO2… but some CO2 is also important for optimal O2 uptake by the muscle … not to mention we always measure blood lactate… but that’s not always 100% accurately describing what’s going on in the muscle.. anyways there’s a lot going on all at once unlike the bathtub)
*This is all based on recall from some basic Google searches about 7 years ago. So, my knowledge is about equivalent to a 2nd grader. So take this with an extra small grain of salt.
you’re also likely using fat much longer as a fuel source before depleting muscle glycogen. That’s brass tacks what having a high lactate threshold equates to
you’re also likely using fat much longer as a fuel source before depleting muscle glycogen. That’s brass tacks what having a high lactate threshold equates to
Again, I’m a 2nd grader, but I don’t think that’s the threshold we’re referring too here. Given this thread was inquiring about high intensity- it means the 2nd threshold. When we discuss Jakob having an LT of 90% of his VO2 max, burning fat isn’t really that significant. You’re not getting glycogen depleted in a 1500-10k, or even for an hour at “threshold pace” assuming you could actually hold an hour. Just curious, say a person’s lactate threshold is 4:45 per mile. What do you think their RER is at 4:50 pace?? Idk either but it sure as heck isn’t anywhere close to 0.7
Maybe I misunderstood what you meant to say.
*Also, ultra runners probably burn fat really well, but their ability to buffer H+ and recycle Lactate probably sucks compared to an 1500-10k runner.
you’re also likely using fat much longer as a fuel source before depleting muscle glycogen. That’s brass tacks what having a high lactate threshold equates to
What it seems like you what be trying to say, maybe, is
a. lactate is always present
b. at some point the accumulation of lactate outstrips the body's ability to combust lactate c. ph plummets due to the increase of the byproducts of glycolysis i.e. hydrogen ions
Yes to a, sort of. No to b.
I'll get voted wrong by "aerobic jogging" faithful, but let's try again with salient facts no jogger wants to believe.
) there is no purely "aerobic" phase. Anaerobic starts first and never stops. ) Aerobic increases once anaerobic starts flooding working muscle with acidity. ) The acidity refers to the surplus of H+, not lactate. ) The difference in pH between blood and muscle increases the speed that oxygen unloads from blood to muscle, and CO2 from muscle to blood. ) H+ that spills into the blood from the muscle reacts with carbonate to produce water and CO2. The CO2 is exhaled ) the so-called "threshold" is where that buffering is too slow to maintain the high pH difference between blood and muscle.
Training at this level destroys mitochondria like lifting weights destroys muscle, i.e. maybe a little but then you adapt to the activity. More available oxygen, more mitochondria. Slow running doesn't even come close. It does keep your weight down though, which can seem like an aerobic fitness boost.
Temperature is also a factor. Vasodilation is a factor. CO2 dilates blood vessels. So does Nitric Oxide.
call it Shirley for all i care. im talking about LT1, the only ‘threshold’ thats identifying a true sustained break ftom baseline and where Fatmax is plummeting.
again, jakob is likely to have a lot of domain compression here so his lt1 is at a very high percentage of vo2 max as well
We must explain the how. The how is the skill part that endurance coaches keep ignoring.
“Using oxygen more efficiently is probably a poor description”.
If your lactate threshold occurs at 70% of Vo2 max and then improves to occur at 80% of max (VO2 max remains constant) then what happened? Is it running efficiency by improving your skills? No, running efficiency would decrease the amount of O2 used at a given pace. So, your lactate threshold PACE would improve, but that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about percentage of VO2 max.
Let’s say VO2 max is 100 somehow. Why are you now able to use 80 ml/kg/min of O2 at your threshold when previously you could only use 70? Well, probably for the same reason people use sodium bicarbonate and beta-Alanine (or topical carnosine). Your buffering abilities become better. There are also enzymes that shuttle lactate both in and out of the cells so it can be recycled faster. Maybe your ability to exhale CO2 to increase pH gets better (I just made the last part up- don’t know if that really happens).
You are always producing some lactate and H+ ions. So for some people, at 70% VO2 max, the amount of lactate and H+ becomes more than what their body can process and recycle (or get rid of). So lactate levels start to rapidly rise and many call that the “threshold”. But then, you get better at buffering and recycling (for example muscle carnosine levels increase, your enzymes change (I’m forgetting them- LDH, MCT-1, MCT-4??) and basically now you can produce more lactate and H+ (the amount you produce at 80%) without the levels rising. It’s like if you’re filling up a bathtub with the drain open- the water levels will start to rise when the amount of water coming in, exceeds the amount of water draining out. If you get a bigger drain, it will take more water coming in for water levels to rise. (Not a perfect analogy because lactate doesn’t leave- it gets recycled, and you also have H+ and overall pH which can also be increased by getting rid of CO2… but some CO2 is also important for optimal O2 uptake by the muscle … not to mention we always measure blood lactate… but that’s not always 100% accurately describing what’s going on in the muscle.. anyways there’s a lot going on all at once unlike the bathtub)
*This is all based on recall from some basic Google searches about 7 years ago. So, my knowledge is about equivalent to a 2nd grader. So take this with an extra small grain of salt.
So i guess the Norwegian federation is spending so much time measuring VO2 Max because its a waste of time to focus on it?
Fractional utilization was pointed to. How many of those 80 ml/g 20:00 5k runners have a high fractional utilization of their VO2 max?
In Jakobs case, he's likely over 90% Vo2 max at LT2. His compressed domains at the top end while still turning over massive amounts of energy is why this guy is so incredibly powerful, even if his base speed isnt the fastest ever. His speed seems to actually be his limiter. No way he could have outkicked Coe/Cram and company in their prime. But again, all their metabolic profiles would be dramatically different at a pretty basic level.
Yes. Total waste.
You can show improvement in Vo2max and still actually get slower or place higher in your next race.
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