LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

No, no, no. It’s not “sprinting” at all. On the contrary, your forward momentum is much slower even than regular running (I’m talking about Steep Hill Running here). Imagine performing one of the sprinting drills, High Knee, on the hill but not pumping your knees up as vigorously or quickly as that… The idea here is a transition from marathon conditioning to faster, harder track work; or from aerobic to anaerobic; and to reintroduce power and flexibility in your strides. If you run it too fast, (1) the whole session (the uphill segment) is going to be shorter, meaning you will not apply as much resistance to your legs which is the whole purpose of this exercise, (2) the segment will become too highly anaerobic (uphill running WILL be somewhat anaerobic but you don’t have to encourage it more than necessary) and (3) because of that (lactic acid build-up), your form will be more likely to tighten up, that means you will be teaching your body incorrect movement. Take it slow. Concentrate on high knee, good posture, straight arm swing and good push-off with your toes. If you do have a 800m hill, the uphill section may even take good 4 or 5 minutes but the time is irrelevant. But, believe me, even the forward speed is slow, if done correctly, you WILL feel it a lot in your legs!

Bounding and springing are a bit different. You need to get some momentum to get going. Again the speed is irrelevant but you need to go fairly fast to keep that momentum. These will get you more lactic acid (for those who like to have it a lot in your blood stream…). Great exercises, but this is the reason why I personally don’t like to encourage these as a transition. Start with Steep Hill Running and work your way into other exercises. You can certainly mix them all up but you don’t need to either. Steep Hill Running will work more on your knee lift and endurance. Hill Bounding on back-leg extension and Springing on ankle flexibility. Latter two more for speed development as opposed to speed endurance or speed maintenance with Steep Hill Running. So depending on your event and your strengths and weaknesses, you can switch around the ratio of these exercises. I’ve been working on a chart to show a general idea of how much of which exercise you should concentrate but it’s not complete yet.

Lately a short sharp all-out sprint over a short hill (10 seconds?) has been very popular due to coach Canova and coach Hudson. I’m not against that type of exercise at all (Lydiard would have said any hill training would be good!). In fact, there may be a perfect place for that type of workout. Many great athletes have simply sprint, or run, up the hill (Eliot, Ovett, Coe, etc.). That’s perfectly fine too. But with the Lydiard program, these are 3 hill exercises and the purpose of those exercises are as stated and, depending on which part of overall training program you are in, the nuance may be slightly different. I know of one Lydiard disciple (directly coached by him) who don’t necessarily perform “original hill exercise” but just run up the hill. He did say, however, that he and his runners don’t necessarily “run fast” but “run hard.” There is a difference.

Another fantastic Lydiard thread! I love it when Nobby gets his fingers flying. Great stuff by HRE and Kim too. I am eating it up, because I'm on a mission to understand Lydiard as completely as possible.

I just finished 4 weeks of hill circuits - 3 workouts per week. I did full circuits - a mixture of bounding, springing and high-knee/steep-hill exercises with an emphasis on the first two. I did the exercises up the 400m hill, jogged 3 minutes at the top, ran fast down, jogged 3 minutes, did four 60-meter sprints with good knee lift, jogged 3 minutes and started over.

I worked up to 60 minutes and felt like I could keep going, but heeded warnings from Arthur to do no more than that. However, the next day my legs would be pretty dead. I could tell that EVERY running muscle had been worked hard through its full range of motion. I'm in my 2nd week of anaerobic training. Last night I ran what was for me, a pretty stellar set of 1000m repeats, so things seem to be working out so far for this 41 year old.

BTW, Arthur advised me to start playing around with hill exercises here and there towards the end of conditioning and also to do some calf raises on steps in order to ease the transition to the hill phase and prevent injury. I started out with just 30 minutes for my 1st hill workout, which was plenty at the time, and went up from there.

I have done the 50/50 sharpening workout previously. I kept the recovery 50s moving at about 6:00 pace. I was shocked to see that my average pace for 2000m was faster than my usual interval pace. So, obviously these are hard work, but they are over with quickly, which seems to be the idea. You keep in the quality towards the end of the program, but the workouts get short and sharp.

What did Lydiard have in mind when he prescribed "Sprinter Training" for a given day (a non-Hill Circuit day during the Hill Bounding Phase for example) What would "Sprinter Training" include exactly? Would there be any aerobic running or recovery jogging included in this day or did he literally mean one should train exactly how the 100-200m sprinters train for a day?

In a related question, when a schedule "only" called for say "10 x 100m" how would a workout be structured around that? Would there be a long warm-up or warm-down to maintain some mileage? Or is this a day of speed without any traditional moderate-long distance running?

Thanks for all the great info!

So I wasn't even a competent skipper as a kid? I think I always landed on my alternate foot.

HRE wrote:

So I wasn't even a competent skipper as a kid? I think I always landed on my alternate foot.

You were probably just "bounding." When you skip, you land on the same foot and then move to the other foot.

Since Lyiard talked about springing from the ankles, I used to jump rope after some of my workouts. That definitely worked on the spring as I would do a set with both feet, then another set with each leg by itself, and finish with another set of both feet. Although I was running upwards of 100 mpw, I could still hit my elbow on the rim of a 10-foot basketball goal, and I'm 6'2".

I am at the point where I've neglected short speed over the years, so I'm back with the jump rope and doing sessions of 100m repeats. Too much slow stuff over the years has left me running slow and stiff. We'll see how the transition goes on this 40-year-old who is getting sick of seeing 19:xx on the clock at the finish line.

Hotlanta Master: Years ago, before I really knew anything about Lydiard, I used to do a hill session at my parents' house. Their house was on a hill that was about 1/10-mile long, and it took about 30 seconds to climb. Thus, I had to do several repeats to get a decent workout. I used to do 20 repeats, and after every 5, I would run a hard 200 yards out and a hard 200 yards back. I did this in order to help keep count of the number of repeats. I later learned that I wasn't too far off from a Lydiard hill session. All I know is that after doing that twice/week for two months, I ran a 10K. My PR dropped from 33:59 to 32:19.

There would definitly be "extra running" other than the Sprint work.

This is where "supplementary runs" come in. Chances are many athletes would jog 20 to 30 mins in the morning and then in the afternoon : warmup : Jog 20 mins .. strideout say 6 to 10 100s .. then run the 10 X 100 .. Recovery between could be anything from a walkback same distance to jogging say 200 to 300m, depending n the athlete ..

then a 20 to 30 minute warmdown jog.

Bill Baillie really pushed being "Fresh and fast" when these schedules were "on deck", and that is the idea behind the Race week / non race week schedule. You "freshen up" to race.

However, you still maintain your "aerobic" fitness with the long runs. Mileage at this time is not important.

Sorry, total week mileage is not important. But if you are one of those athletes who count every yard/metre then I think you would be pleasantly surprised just how much you are doing.

[quote]HRE wrote:

Doug M,

Not that Nobby hasn't covered this, but if you want to asee Lydiard's ideas applied to someone who was going to have multiple or extended racing programs, a good place to look would be at Rob DeCastella's training with Pat Clohessey.

AND IF DECASTELLA HAD STUCK WITH PURE LYDIARD HE WOULD HAVE WON AN OLYMPIC GOLD.

johnny carson wrote:

[quote]HRE wrote:

AND IF DECASTELLA HAD STUCK WITH PURE LYDIARD HE WOULD HAVE WON AN OLYMPIC GOLD.

I've wondered about that too. Still, it's a reach.

All the readers:

I really didn’t mean to turn this thread into “let’s explain the Lydiard program” thread. I would like to shift focus a bit and like to ask the Daniels followers, or whomever has a good insight on the program, about his training system. I thought someone mentioned earlier that he actually did more hill training than mentioned in his book. I’m a huge believer of hills. I know Bowerman said somewhere that he doesn’t believe in hills because “there’s no hill on track” but it’s a typical Bowerman talk. I know his runners, if not most of them, did quite a bit of hills, running around “buttes” in Oregon. I’m curious to know what type of hill training Dr. Daniels recommend, why (any specific reason), and what part of overall program he inject it.

Also, I can see his program is geared more toward college athletic program with multiple peaks but how about high school level? One of my objectives right now is to put together a presentation on the Lydiard program for high school situation. There are many Lydiard followers out there who have successfully adopted the program to high school setting and I would love to hear those success stories and specific details… Sorry, I digressed again. But what about application of the Daniels program to high school situation? One of the things Lydiard always stressed was that the younger the athlete, the less anaerobic type training they should engage. Even though Daniels system lays out explicitly how fast or how hard each run should be, wouldn’t that be a bit too stressful for young developing athletes? I mean, you cannot, or should not, apply the same type of anaerobic stress proportionate to speed and performance level at the same ratio.

One last thing is that (now I don’t have quite clear grasp on the Daniels program so please bear with me) his program seems to be based on your 1500/mile time and 5000m time and so on and so forth. I was one of those people who, once started sharpening work, the times came down quite a bit. In other words, my date time and goal time differ quite a bit. So I didn’t care even if my mile repeat time in the beginning of the track schedule was quite slow because I knew my times will come down when sharpened up. How would he handle such situation?

Again, I have nothing but huge respect for Dr. Daniels. Would love to pick his brain—or get some practical experience from people who follow his schedule. Your input will be greatly appreciated. (…and if you’re a high school coach who has a success story of applying the Lydiard program to share, that would be more than welcome as well!!!)

With Daniels' VDOT formulas, the intensity of the different paces aren't really that intense when you really take a look at them. Since they are based on actual RACE PERFORMANCE, the intensity is on par with what you have actually accomplished in a race, no hypothetical times you "could" run, so you are always running well within your means. He states in his book that the goal of training is something along the lines of getting the "best results with the least amount of effort". I don't think Daniels is a huge advocate of high mileage IN HIGH SCHOOL, but does make a point that mileage increases are essential if running is something you want to pursue after the college, or HS years. I think many people get the idea that Daniels is all about VO2 stuff,etc. but it's more of just about training the "race specific" energy systems at the proper intensities.

I think a lot of coaches like using Daniels for HS runners beacuse they can keep them within the parameters of the workouts. HS kids seem to always run too fast and race workouts rather than running the desired paces. Also, kids are in competition for scholarships and like it or not you have to run fast in HS to get those, so maybe Daniels program does develop results quicker.

The programs are more similar than different and any coach who uses Lydiard or Daniels with a high school team is already one step up on over half of the teams in the US. Most high school coaches are just not informed or "already know everything".

Daniels' schedule for his R phase state a workout like 400 meters at R pace not to exceed 5% of weekly mileage. He then states "Could be hills." Thus, if you want to run hills, you would do it in the same time-frame as Lydiard. However, I believe that Daniels' hills are more of the traditional hill repeats.

The amount of anaerobic stress is based on the amount of weekly mileage. Daniels, for most part, really only has 1 anaeroic-type workout in a week, and a race would probably cover it. If you run a 5K XC race, he would not have you run another anaerobic workout that week. He doesn't consider the repeats at R pace (mile pace) to be anaerobic because of the greater rest involved.

He would handle it the same way that you would. Once the times start coming down, you increase the paces. Now, if you read carefully, even Daniels will caution you not to jump too fast in increasing paces. Say that you worked at the 56 VDOT level for a week or two and then ran a race at 60 VDOT level. Daniels would not have you immediately start training at 60 VDOT because it could result in a lot more training stress than what the athlete is ready for. Daniels says that you can increase VDOT once every 3-6 weeks.

I don't use a true Daniels program with my son unless you call a perpetual R phase a Daniels program. With my son, I use a lot of Tinman's CV repeats and I throw in some 300-meter repeats at mile pace for speed. I've seen consistent 30 second improvements in his 3200m time every year while doing this.

First off, I'm shocked that I can figure out how to use the quote command. :-)

I agree with the above statement. In addition, Daniels assumes that runners in high school are not just runners. They are also soccer players, basketball players, and the like. They are getting aerobic conditioning through other sports. My son plays soccer. Trying to get him to run 70-80 mpw while playing 10-15 hours/week of soccer would be stupid on my part.

Daniels get the VO2 moniker because of Runners World and their articles. Again, it goes back to something I said somewhere. When we first look at a runner's schedule, we immediately go to the speed session because they're sexy. Daniels is really sexy because he has charts that you can follow. It's too easy to ignore the mundane daily runs that make up the base, yet Daniels has that as well. He doesn't start you with I work or R work. You can shorten the base period if you have already established a deep base.

Plus it's easy to establish individual workouts for each runner. Instead of everyone attempting to hang onto the fastest runner until they die, each runner can run the paces that are proper for his level. For most coaches, it's an easy answer to "How fast should I run?"

Finally, Nobby, don't worry about "taking over the thread." The only way we're all going to learn is for everyone to contribute with their knowledge. You, and several others, have some great insight on Lydiard. I, for one, appreciate the fact that you're sharing it with us.

On hills. I would argue that hills are valuable, in fact its hard to avoid them on just a regular training run.

However, let me make this distinction.

Hills are not the same as REP work. I think people underestimate the intensity of REP work at mile pace even if its only 5% of weekly mileage.

As a reference.

Go out an run 15 x 400m REP work at mile pace. Then tell me how that feels. Its hard work. It hurts.

Then run 15 x 1 min hill work. Its challenging but not the same.

Part of the reasoning behind the REP work is not just effort, but training at high velocities to get used to these speeds. In addition, with REP work your body gets a high exposure to eccentric loading, which builds the mechanical strength for later interval workouts. In hill running eccentric loading is virtually non existent. Given this fact though, one would recover faster from a hill workout than a REP workout.

So I think what JD meant was that sometimes hills can function as a replacement workout for REPS, but the REPS have their own specific reason for existing.

Oh jees... wrote:

Hills are not the same as REP work. I think people underestimate the intensity of REP work at mile pace even if its only 5% of weekly mileage.

As a reference.

Go out an run 15 x 400m REP work at mile pace. Then tell me how that feels. Its hard work. It hurts.

Then run 15 x 1 min hill work. Its challenging but not the same.

In a Daniels rep workout the rest is four times the length (in time) as the rep. So a 17:00 5k runner who puts in 50 miles a week might do 10 x 400 @ 34/35 with a 2:20 jog after each. That's not a challenging workout. It's a fun workout that takes time - with all the rest!

Hill workouts vary widely. Some of them are much more challenging that a Daniels rep workout.

Nobby say:

"One of my objectives right now is to put together a presentation on the Lydiard program for high school situation. There are many Lydiard followers out there who have successfully adopted the program to high school setting and I would love to hear those success stories and specific details… Sorry, I digressed again. But what about application of the Daniels program to high school situation?"

Hello Nobby-san,

I am enjoying reading your comments & analysis as well as the other contributors. Interesting.

I just finished reading the "Shadow of Gerry Lindgren" biography, have you read it?

If I were coaching American high schoolers their homework would be to read:

Glenn Cuningham, "Never Quit"

"Pre"

& Lindgren.

I believe this would plant a seed that would grow among those who were fertile ground.

My HS coach knew a little about running but not enough to screw us up with anything complicated.

I read Lydiard "Run to the Top" in HS and I immediately understood what I needed to do though I could not fully apply his methods I got the concept, very simple. Run throughout the summer, build my foundation.

I appreciate Daniels work, his studies, but see little value in the VDOT method.

HS runners primary objective should be to have fun, enjoy the comraderie and test their limits without being run into the ground with excessive interval/anaerobic running.

OK, just some random thoughts.

bug wrote:

So a 17:00 5k runner who puts in 50 miles a week might do 10 x 400 @ 34/35 with a 2:20 jog after each.

Apologies, I wrote the above too quickly. Such a runner would do 10 x 400 @ 74 with about 5 minutes recovery between each. (The assumption is the runner could race a mile in roughly 4:55.)

Nobby,

Here are some sites about the Daniels program:

http://www.coacheseducation.com/endur/jack-daniels-june-00.htm

http://www.coacheseducation.com/endur/jack-daniels-july-00.htm

http://www.coacheseducation.com/endur/jack-daniels-aug-00.htm

http://www.coacheseducation.com/endur/jack-daniels-nov-00.htm

Lananna's Training based on Daniels

http://www.nacactfca.org/articles/Lananna.pdf

Enjoy...

bug wrote:

Hill workouts vary widely. Some of them are much more challenging that a Daniels rep workout.

I agree with this. I think JTD's Rep workouts are not extemely taxing (versus a VO2max interval session). Sometimes I do hills with Rep effort and recovery, and sometimes I do hills with Interval effort and recovery. An interval hill workout is way more stressful (to me) than a track rep workout. The long recoveries of the reps really keep the stress down.