Kipchoge dominance is simply too good to be true

WTF are you smoking wrote:

Disgusting people. wrote:

I've reported the OP and suggest for others to do the same thing.

Anyone who continues attacking athletes so frivolously should be banned from the web site.

This thread made the "on the board". So the brojos and all the other mods have seen and read this thread and haven't found it needing to be deleted.

I started this thread and haven’t attacked anyone. My whole premise is the last two endurance athletes with sustained dominance at levels never before seen were an admitted doper and another cyclist who dominated as the EPO era was beginning. Also made the point that Kipchoge has a great reputation. That’s not attacking but asking legitimate questions. In my mind it’s not the 2:01 but winning 10 straight majors that makes me raise one eyebrow because of the money and talent in marathoning today.

Runningart2004 wrote:

Answer me this: I will give you a million dollars a year for the next 5 yrs. All you have to do is take this assortment of drugs that won’t kill you. Would you do it? You would. Everyone would. It’s about providing for your family for life. That’s more important than records or fame.

Alan

Now that's just silly. You conveniently left out all of the potential negative consequences, like public shame, the feeling of guilt caused by helping destroy the sport you love and betraying the generations of truly great athletes who built that sport, and maybe even a nice, relaxing stint in prison.

Given all of those very realistic possibilities, hell no I wouldn't do it, and I don't think very many would or do. You can put food on your family (c) without taking those sorts of risks.

Runningart2004 wrote:

I’m waiting until someone closes a marathon with a 4:00 mile. It’s going to happen. Kipchoge dropped what, a 4:26 mile 25? GTFO lol.

Alan

Based on his 5,000 PR, Eliud has a Daniels VDOT of about 84. Tempo pace for someone with a VDOT of 84 is 4:27/mile, according to Daniels.

So lol if it makes you happy, but closing a competitive marathon in 4:26 (if that's even true -- I didn't bother to confirm) isn't at all far-fetched for someone with Eliud's engine.

Yes, it's one thing to answer 'yes' with a grin on your face to some stupid pollster asking you if you would cheat to win even if you died, another to actually do it reality.

Obviously the vast majority of EPO cheats did not choose death even when there was no risk of being caught for EPO (it wasn't even illegal when El G etc were breaking records). At the start of the 90s, cyclists were dropping like flies because they were literally going full throttle with the EPO. So EPO will kill you if you take too much of it, and the runners who started taking it in the years afterwards seem to have been generally aware of that. Otherwise, perhaps we would have seen El G run 3:22 and die on the track, or Bekele 12:20.

And let's also not forget that not only is the risk of being caught much, much greater in the West, the shame and the aftermath is much worse too. Seems in Kenya, Morocco, and Ethiopia, nobody really cares about an athlete cheating. Look at the love being shown to Asbel Kiprop for threatening to use his gun on people if the IAAF doesn't let him back. Whereas in the West, your ability to lead a normal life or earn any kind of living will be effectively over if you get exposed as a doper.

Taro wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

I’m waiting until someone closes a marathon with a 4:00 mile. It’s going to happen. Kipchoge dropped what, a 4:26 mile 25? GTFO lol.

Alan

Based on his 5,000 PR, Eliud has a Daniels VDOT of about 84. Tempo pace for someone with a VDOT of 84 is 4:27/mile, according to Daniels.

So lol if it makes you happy, but closing a competitive marathon in 4:26 (if that's even true -- I didn't bother to confirm) isn't at all far-fetched for someone with Eliud's engine.

Wow are you stupid. Kipchoge ran 12:46 15 years ago. Please educate yourself.

At the end of the day, if you believe he's a cheat, nothing will convince you.

If you believe he's clean, he's clean.

In the world of professional sports, nobody really knows.

In​ the end, it's sports entertainment.

All we want is a champion who can

1) A great ambassador of the sport

2) Represent the ideals of the sport ON/OFF the field

3) Gracious in defeat

4) live the lifestyle that everyone can aspire to be.

5) Be yourself and not be fake.

What more do you want from a champion like Kipchoge?

People like Lance Armstrong, Galen Rupp, Mo Farah, Ronaldo, Tiger Woods, John Jones are all hypocrites. They want to be adored, but lives an entitled lifestyle and treat people like crap. Everyone knows it for those who know them.

Kipchoge is none of that.

But we just love to smear him of his success by doping allegations because that's all the haters have left to hate on.

hold the phone wrote:

If you'd like to learn about exercise metabolism, there's a pretty good open-access review here:

https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(15)00283-1

Note this section:

"Furthermore, there is consensus that the primary determinants of the balance of carbohydrate (muscle and liver glycogen and blood glucose from ingested carbohydrate and gluconeogenesis) and lipid (adipose and intramuscular triglycerides as well as blood-borne free fatty acids [FFAs] and triglycerides) fuels for active muscle are the relative exercise intensity (expressed as a percentage of an individual’s maximum oxygen uptake [VO2max]..."

The key point is that the mix of fat and carb depends on the *relative* intensity as a fraction of VO2max. So if you increase VO2max, a given running speed will have a lower relative intensity, and thus rely more heavily on fat than it did before.

Thanks for the interesting article. The passage you quoted above goes on: " . . . and the composition of the diet in the preceding days (Bergström et al., 1967). "

But the article doesn't go as far as you do when you say that a higher VO2max results in greater fat metabolism at a given running speed. In fact, the article later says that fat metabolism comes at a higher oxygen cost than carbohydrate metabolism. Here's the relevant sentence: "They also showed a higher oxygen cost of physical activity (∼12%) when fat was the principal fuel oxidized."

This suggests to me that there would be a preference for metabolizing carbohydrate rather than fat if the objective is to run faster at a given percentage of VO2max. I think this is relevant to the discussion of EPO and marathon performance because if EPO does not spare muscle glycogen, it would do little to prevent the "bonking" that occurs when marathoners run out of glycogen. So even if Eliud were on EPO, would that really explain why he never seems to experience "the wall"? On the contrary, it seems he (and many other of today's best) almost always run FASTER in the latter stages of a marathon (an exception being his Breaking 2 feat, which was very evenly and deliberately paced).

The answer to this is AICAR, which enhances lipidic power.

+1

Anonimo veneziano wrote:

The answer to this is AICAR, which enhances lipidic power.

Is that what Lance used to snag 3rd at age 38? And beat that dork named after me...

It may be possible sir

As I told before there is nothing strange with his performances . They are mathematical up to his other performances at track . If hypothetically it would show he is on peds I will start to trust nobody. He is the very last I would suspect to be a doper!

But my opinion remains that now the king of doping drugs is some kind of HIF stabilizer, which enhances all the biological training responses to altitude exposition. These drugs not only increase natural EPO but trigger VEGF response ->More capillarization increase all the physiological parameters necessary to run a fast marathon.

Bad Wigins wrote:

Anonimo veneziano wrote:

The answer to this is AICAR, which enhances lipidic power.

Is that what Lance used to snag 3rd at age 38? And beat that dork named after me...

This made me chuckle.

What did you think of Kiptum's performances? Were you suspicious of him when he ran the WR last year or did you think he was clean back then?

This video is kind of funny now in hindsight. It's a complete analysis of Kiptum vs Kipchoge pre-London much like the analysis the NFL pundits do pre-Super Bowl.

Anonimo veneziano wrote:

But my opinion remains that now the king of doping drugs is some kind of HIF stabilizer, which enhances all the biological training responses to altitude exposition. These drugs not only increase natural EPO but trigger VEGF response ->More capillarization increase all the physiological parameters necessary to run a fast marathon.

So, you're saying it increases "natural EPO" and therefore wouldn't trigger an AAF for rEPO?

On the HIF -- are you talking about something along the lines of FG4592? There is a way to detect FG4592 in urine but it use doesn't appear to trigger the thresholds of the ABP adaptive model. This is concerning because an athlete wouldn't be target tested during the year based on suspicious parameters triggered in their passport. If the athlete knew the washout periods they wouldn't test positive IC nor trigger any suspicious ABP markers for future target testing:

Suspected dopers have been been promoted to anti-doping roles so they protect their own kind whilst throwing others under the bus.

President Doper wrote:

Suspected dopers have been been promoted to anti-doping roles so they protect their own kind whilst throwing others under the bus.

Of course. And in high positions in the national and international federations. Same problem cycling is facing.

VAboi wrote:

It doesn’t logically follow that the root cause of something bad is worse, so I’m not satisfied with that answer. Just reckon with this—corrupt and broken institutions exist, and people allow them to exist, because they ostensibly set out to do good.

You don’t have to agree on which is worse, chicken or egg, so to speak, but I’m making the case that the current state of anti-doping is much more unfair than its nonexistent alternative.

So you're not debating on which of the two evil is worse yet you are making the case that anti=doping is worse....Interesting.

You underline the real problem we have in this society today. The unwillingness to accept consequences for our actions. Shifting the blaim game sort of speak.

I think it is fair to claim that wihtout dopers there would be no Anti-doping institutions (why create something for something that doesn't exist)

Doping is wrong and yes ...anti=doping institutions are corrupt and unfair.... those are the unwanted consequences that dopers have created. ..Now we have to deal with it.

That's not to say we say nothing about the Anti-Doping world , but our focus and anger should still be directed towards the dopers first.

For the records i'm not suggesting Kipchoge is guilty of anything .

Peace.