If the Ingebrigtsens are doing all of their threshold reps at the same pace, regardless of duration, wouldn’t they accumulate higher levels of lactate on the longer reps? 5x6 mins would produce higher lactate levels than 10x3 mins at the same pace?
Or would the goal be end of session lactate levels? The two workouts would seem to produce similar levels of lactate by the end of the session, in theory, but I’m unfamiliar with how it works in the real world.
Saturday Long Run wrote:
If the Ingebrigtsens are doing all of their threshold reps at the same pace, regardless of duration, wouldn’t they accumulate higher levels of lactate on the longer reps? 5x6 mins would produce higher lactate levels than 10x3 mins at the same pace?
Or would the goal be end of session lactate levels? The two workouts would seem to produce similar levels of lactate by the end of the session, in theory, but I’m unfamiliar with how it works in the real world.
I don’t get why lactate Threshold pace is always one hour race pace despite various interval durations. For an elite it seems to me that 3 x 2 miles at half marathon pace will produce higher levels of lactate than 10 x 1k at at half marathon pace.
Saturday Long Run wrote:
If the Ingebrigtsens are doing all of their threshold reps at the same pace, regardless of duration, wouldn’t they accumulate higher levels of lactate on the longer reps? 5x6 mins would produce higher lactate levels than 10x3 mins at the same pace?
Or would the goal be end of session lactate levels? The two workouts would seem to produce similar levels of lactate by the end of the session, in theory, but I’m unfamiliar with how it works in the real world.
Simply explained the only difference is that in the longer reps the same accumulated level of lactate the body will be trained for a longer time to faster use in the energy process . If the pace will be too fast the body will not catch up with the increase in accumulated lactate. The body will over time adapt to this and then will be able to keep faster pace with the same accumulated level of lactate as before.
13.1 miles in 1 hour is 4:34.8/mile, or roughly 68.3/400m. That would mean they would typically run 1,054 meters per 3 minute interval and 2108m per 6 minute interval, and 3514m per 10 minute interval.
Compare this to Jakob's average 5000m pace today, 62.6s/400m, and his best average 1500m pace, 56.03/400m.
So, he does intervals at at least 6 seconds over 5k pace (I assume today showed he could have run a lot faster with faster pacing) and 12 seconds over 1500m pace. Remarkable that he is able to handle such paces with so little race specific work.
Ron Clarke almost never did any specific race pace work. Most of it was very steady state runs. Mark Nenow very similar. Once you establish a very good base/fitness, you can run fast without pace specific work. Now Jakob problem does 5k/1500 specific workouts during the season to sharpen up.
zcxvxcv wrote:
13.1 miles in 1 hour is 4:34.8/mile, or roughly 68.3/400m. That would mean they would typically run 1,054 meters per 3 minute interval and 2108m per 6 minute interval, and 3514m per 10 minute interval.
Compare this to Jakob's average 5000m pace today, 62.6s/400m, and his best average 1500m pace, 56.03/400m.
So, he does intervals at at least 6 seconds over 5k pace (I assume today showed he could have run a lot faster with faster pacing) and 12 seconds over 1500m pace. Remarkable that he is able to handle such paces with so little race specific work.
Nice ! Here you show that his LT-pace today is roughly 68 sec/ 400m or 2:50 min / km ( Kipchoge roughly 2:46 min/ km ). But here comes another way to see it.....the LT-pace intervals are also "race specific"! Everything is interrelated and the different speeds are interdependent.
mileage makes champs wrote:
Ron Clarke almost never did any specific race pace work. Most of it was very steady state runs. Mark Nenow very similar. Once you establish a very good base/fitness, you can run fast without pace specific work. Now Jakob problem does 5k/1500 specific workouts during the season to sharpen up.
Ron and Mark were great runners in their time back then. With the same kind of smart structured pace specific work as Jakob they had run even faster. I`m sure!
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
mileage makes champs wrote:
Ron Clarke almost never did any specific race pace work. Most of it was very steady state runs. Mark Nenow very similar. Once you establish a very good base/fitness, you can run fast without pace specific work. Now Jakob problem does 5k/1500 specific workouts during the season to sharpen up.
Ron and Mark were great runners in their time back then. With the same kind of smart structured pace specific work as Jakob they had run even faster. I`m sure!
I think there is more similarities in their training, than at first glance. Instead of breaking it down into something like 10 x 1k or 25 x 400, Clarke would do something like 20k in a hour. Physiology speaking I'd imagine it is similar as far as what it does. Nenow training was over rolling hills in KY. As someone who has ran in KY, doing a very steady run over rolling hills and pushing it on the uphills, it is very similar to do a track session. Like in most things in life, there is more than one way to achieve the same goal. My point in my post in which you responded to was that you can run fast after you achieve a good level of fitness without doing much race specific work.
mileage makes champs wrote:
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
Ron and Mark were great runners in their time back then. With the same kind of smart structured pace specific work as Jakob they had run even faster. I`m sure!
I think there is more similarities in their training, than at first glance. Instead of breaking it down into something like 10 x 1k or 25 x 400, Clarke would do something like 20k in a hour. Physiology speaking I'd imagine it is similar as far as what it does. Nenow training was over rolling hills in KY. As someone who has ran in KY, doing a very steady run over rolling hills and pushing it on the uphills, it is very similar to do a track session. Like in most things in life, there is more than one way to achieve the same goal. My point in my post in which you responded to was that you can run fast after you achieve a good level of fitness without doing much race specific work.
And my point is that smart structured training where you know exactly at every moment where you are in the process to reach the goal is superior to a method based on guesses
and feelings.
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
mileage makes champs wrote:
I think there is more similarities in their training, than at first glance. Instead of breaking it down into something like 10 x 1k or 25 x 400, Clarke would do something like 20k in a hour. Physiology speaking I'd imagine it is similar as far as what it does. Nenow training was over rolling hills in KY. As someone who has ran in KY, doing a very steady run over rolling hills and pushing it on the uphills, it is very similar to do a track session. Like in most things in life, there is more than one way to achieve the same goal. My point in my post in which you responded to was that you can run fast after you achieve a good level of fitness without doing much race specific work.
And my point is that smart structured training where you know exactly at every moment where you are in the process to reach the goal is superior to a method based on guesses
and feelings.
Things don't need to be exact, just close enough. If you did your track sessions on a track that was 398 meters or 402 meters, do you think that would matter much? I don't think there's anything wrong with doing exact LT sessions, but I also see a lot of benefits of doing steady runs, especially over hills. Variety is good. If I was coaching runners, as they are building up their fitness I would start them off doing steady runs, often over hills. And than introduce more structured workouts later on after they built up a decent amount of fitness.
wolde wrote:
Is very simple and effective, the only requirements are PATIENCE and TRUST in the work. And of course.....one LACTATE METER. Some are saying that they don´t meassure lactate levels when they are in South Africa or Flagstaff, but that´s not true.....see Jakob Ingebrigtsen´s Instagram, yesterday they where doing hill reps and taking blood samples frome their fingers.
Thanks for the info, but why the lactate meter when you could just use heart rate.
For example keeping the heart rate below 80 or 85% could be similar to below 4mm lactate.
mileage makes champs wrote:
Ron Clarke almost never did any specific race pace work. Most of it was very steady state runs. Mark Nenow very similar. Once you establish a very good base/fitness, you can run fast without pace specific work. Now Jakob problem does 5k/1500 specific workouts during the season to sharpen up.
Clarke did run very fast in his training, and also he raced quite abundantly.
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
Saturday Long Run wrote:
If the Ingebrigtsens are doing all of their threshold reps at the same pace, regardless of duration, wouldn’t they accumulate higher levels of lactate on the longer reps? 5x6 mins would produce higher lactate levels than 10x3 mins at the same pace?
Or would the goal be end of session lactate levels? The two workouts would seem to produce similar levels of lactate by the end of the session, in theory, but I’m unfamiliar with how it works in the real world.
Simply explained the only difference is that in the longer reps the same accumulated level of lactate the body will be trained for a longer time to faster use in the energy process . If the pace will be too fast the body will not catch up with the increase in accumulated lactate. The body will over time adapt to this and then will be able to keep faster pace with the same accumulated level of lactate as before.
So running 6 mins reps at the same pace as 3 min reps accumulates the same amount of lactate? Or am I misunderstanding this? That doesn't seem to make sense to me. Again, I feel like the 6 mins reps at 68/400m pace would accumulate more than 3 mins reps at 68/400m pace.
Former Sub 14:00 wrote:
milermb wrote:
"Now what about a 3:31 1500m guy? You don’t “require” a super fast 800m to be able to do that. You just go to crank 56s for 3.75 laps. They just approach their training from one side more than others."
But in order to win championship races you do need to be able to accelerate and sprint. This is Jacob's weakness at the moment, witness the recent European Indoor 1500. Unless he improves his 800 pb he will be vulnerable in World or Olympic finals unless he can get someone to set a reasonably fast pace (one of his brothers??) as El G did in his prime.
Or he can just wind up from further out (400-500m) like El G used to do. None of those “kickers” would be able to handle that. All those guys sit back and believe they will be the ones to outkick someone else.
You mentioned world indoors, but he brother Filip managed to snag a WC medal in the 1500. Jakob won European champs as well. He outkicked the guy who beat Yomif. We can talk about the level or comp and the circumstances of his opponents all we want but the fact of the matter is that all the brothers do the same training and they are the only medal threats over 1500m other than Willis and Africans. They have produced. They are young. It’s working.
Filip is better at kicking than Jakob.
If Filip is in good shape I'd back him to beat Jakob in a tactical race
I may have missed this information but I didn't have time to read every message.
The brothers do most workouts at LT pace. So where does the closing speed come from? The 200m hill workouts?
I really enjoy LT pace and hill workouts but I always felt that there would be better ways to train top speed.
I am currently at 36:30 for 10k and I would like to go back to the 33:30 I ran years ago (I am 38 and at the same weight). Would LT pace and hill workouts and 50-70 mpw do the trick?
When I ran 33:30 I did lots of track sessions like 10x400, 10x200, etc.
50-70 mpw wrote:
I may have missed this information but I didn't have time to read every message.
The brothers do most workouts at LT pace. So where does the closing speed come from? The 200m hill workouts?
I really enjoy LT pace and hill workouts but I always felt that there would be better ways to train top speed.
I am currently at 36:30 for 10k and I would like to go back to the 33:30 I ran years ago (I am 38 and at the same weight). Would LT pace and hill workouts and 50-70 mpw do the trick?
When I ran 33:30 I did lots of track sessions like 10x400, 10x200, etc.
I think closing speed is more of just being more aerobically fit than others before everyone tries to kick. More “gas in the tank,” so to speak. A lot of people think it’s only raw speed but it doesn’t matter how fast you can run a 400m if you are gassed at the end. That being said, at the elite level most guys are pretty good aerobically.
From my limited anecdotal knowledge, yes, their footspeed/turnover seems to be developed primarily through the hills in at least the pre-season. Others have mentioned them doing more race-specific work which I don’t doubt. One thing my friend observed was that they did FAST striding as well. Not what Americans think or striding. They were moving pretty fast at least once a week after one of their runs. Think accelerations.
50-70 mpw wrote:
I may have missed this information but I didn't have time to read every message.
The brothers do most workouts at LT pace. So where does the closing speed come from? The 200m hill workouts?
I really enjoy LT pace and hill workouts but I always felt that there would be better ways to train top speed.
I am currently at 36:30 for 10k and I would like to go back to the 33:30 I ran years ago (I am 38 and at the same weight). Would LT pace and hill workouts and 50-70 mpw do the trick?
When I ran 33:30 I did lots of track sessions like 10x400, 10x200, etc.
To train top speed you don`t do by
running 10 x 200 hill reps. It`s more like running 3-5 x 10-30 m All out reps....
The best way to improve in middle/longdistance running is to do the right mix between 5 k race pace intervals and LT-intervals.
50-70 mpw wrote:
I may have missed this information but I didn't have time to read every message.
The brothers do most workouts at LT pace. So where does the closing speed come from? The 200m hill workouts?
I really enjoy LT pace and hill workouts but I always felt that there would be better ways to train top speed.
I am currently at 36:30 for 10k and I would like to go back to the 33:30 I ran years ago (I am 38 and at the same weight). Would LT pace and hill workouts and 50-70 mpw do the trick?
When I ran 33:30 I did lots of track sessions like 10x400, 10x200, etc.
What you, and many others, misunderstand is what "closing speed" really is. You must be strong enough to actually use that speed at the end of the race. Usually in championship races, the pace is slow, then a final mighty kick from fairly far out. The easier the pace, the further away you are from emptying your aerobic tank, and can then draw upon your speed at the end. Even closing close to your top end sprint ability for say, the final 300-400m. If a runner is working at 80% vs a runner working at 95%, the runner working at 80% is going to destroy the other one, even if their top end speed is much worse.
Your top end speed, of course, has an effect on this. If Jakob could run an all out 400 in say 52, he's not going to close any PRO championship races in that speed, even off a relatively slow pace. Maybe 55. But, he can run say, 48, and he's made up so much ground aerobically, that he can close a 5k or 1500 in 52-53.
Videos do prove though that they also do seem to be working on top end sprint speed. Instagram shows them doing very fast sprinting on the track, year round. In many ways, it is just slightly more structured Lydiard training, without the specific hill phase (they seem to do hills during the base phase as well). But there's always mileage, top end aerobic, top speed sprinting present - and then periodization to highly race specific work.
Why does anyone care how he trains? Are you all naive enough to think his success is primarily the result of any particular training he does differently from everyone else? The kid has been a phenom since a very young age, and there is only one explanation for that--GENETICS. Copying his training will not make you or the kids who have the misfortune of training under you any f*cking faster. Bunch of g*ddamn idiots out here bro.