Spanish Armada wrote:
The question of the day: How many times did Cacho bob his head in the last 150m? ?
19 head bobs and 9 turns of his head to the right to see if anyone was coming (something Steve Ovett or Lydiard once said slows you down dramatically). For the record I got him on this occasion at 50.5 for the last 400m but I know of others who claim he did 50.39.
Let's Think This One Through wrote:
I remember rekrunner would make fun of Alberto Garcia, a confirmed EPO user, with a PB of 13:02.54 for not being able to run faster than the pre-90's 5k average (Garcia would be Spain's fastest 5k guy & NR holder if you throw out blood bag-Bezabeh, who's Ethiopian).
I remember seeing Garcia run a 13-05 for 5000m in a championship final for 5000m where he thumped several sub 13 min guys such as Sghyr, Mekonnen, and Kipketer. He was clearly in shape faster than 13 min over 5000m. A few years later he was going toe to toe with Gebreselassie in the world indoor champs over 3000m and both of them finished ahead of another sub 13 min man Kipkosgei.
But Rekrunner will probably say that EPO did not really benefit Garcia's performance level because his 5000 PR was 2 sec slower than Moorcroft's (who ran sub 13 10 on 1x) ....
Subway Surfers wrote:
Spanish Armada wrote:
The question of the day: How many times did Cacho bob his head in the last 150m? ?
19 head bobs and 9 turns of his head to the right to see if anyone was coming (something Steve Ovett or Lydiard once said slows you down dramatically). For the record I got him on this occasion at 50.5 for the last 400m but I know of others who claim he did 50.39.
I'm not an expert on running form, but Cacho appears such an ugly runner, and not just with the head bobs, especially in that Barcelona final . Morceli too just appears to me like a club runner speeded up (and we know how). Although others here seem to think that Morceli had good form.
Wouldn't be surprised if that 92 final was the dirtiest in history. I know none of them got busted, but looking at the list of athletes in it, I suspect there might only have been 1 or 2 who were clean. You even had Jens Peter Herold from the German Doping Republic. I think the Barcelona 1500 stands as proof that EPO had long been gotten hold of by runners by 92 and was being put to good use.
Coevett wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if that 92 final was the dirtiest in history. I know none of them got busted, but looking at the list of athletes in it, I suspect there might only have been 1 or 2 who were clean. You even had Jens Peter Herold from the German Doping Republic. I think the Barcelona 1500 stands as proof that EPO had long been gotten hold of by runners by 92 and was being put to good use.
Jens-Peter Herold won gold at the 1990 EC and then ran his 1500 PB in 1992. He also ran a sizzling 3:49xx mile in 1988! So...what does rekrunner do with Jens-Peter Herold -- put him in his pre or post-90s category? ?
Btw, what happen to the Brits in the 15? (they had a good showing in the 800):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_European_Athletics_Championshipsrekrunner wrote:
Lack of national priority and investment and infrastructure?
The simplest answer is that they sucked in the '80s, and before, because they weren't trying to be competitive internationally.
As I was told above, you cannot compare the Spain of the '90s to the Spain of the '80s for many reasons.
Hosting the Olympics probably played the biggest role in attracting investment into athletes, reflecting the national shift in priorities to investment in international sports.
Before 1980, as far back as 1900, Spain only ever won 0, 1, or 2 medals.
In the '80s, Spain won 6, 5, and 4 medals.
In 1992, they won 22, their highest medal count ever. (Thereafter, 17, 11, 20, 19, 18, and 17).
And once again, 22 medals, while unprecedented for Spain, is not remarkable at a world level, or even European level -- it placed them behind Australia (27), France (29), South Korea (29), Hungary (29), Cuba (31), and Germany (82).
Armstronglivs wrote:
How was the legacy of Franco holding sporting achievement back? And how was that legacy turned around in the space of only four years? The simplest explanation - as it is usually - is that doping became wholesale in Spanish sports in the early nineties with the occasion of the Barcelona Olympics.
Well, if it's money that produces medals then we would see the medal tallies going through the roof for the wealthier countries. But, surprisingly, no. And then there is Africa, which is largely Third World...
You should stick to statistics and sums - you are clearly out of your depth anywhere else.
Subway Surfers wrote:
Spanish Armada wrote:
The question of the day: How many times did Cacho bob his head in the last 150m? ?
19 head bobs and 9 turns of his head to the right to see if anyone was coming (something Steve Ovett or Lydiard once said slows you down dramatically). For the record I got him on this occasion at 50.5 for the last 400m but I know of others who claim he did 50.39.
Dr Fuentes of the notorious Operacion Puerto and the infamous "blood bags" (that a Spanish court ruled to be destroyed ) claimed his clients were in every major sport in Spain. His wife said that if she told what she knew about what was done for Barcelona and since it would "bring down Spanish sport". Even a Spanish Sports Minister has lately publicly admitted "Spain has a doping problem".
Subway Surfers wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
I remember Spanish tennis taking off in the late-nineties and into the 2000's. Nadal has been physically unbelievable throughout his career - despite his many and fabled "injuries". When I saw Cacho's finish at Barcelona I didn't believe it. Still don't. It was like he only began the race in the last 250m.
Did someone say Cacho in Barcelona? Ha! This is satirical.
https://youtu.be/JrH6Y6ZcdTI
The EPO caused my screen to change colour. But rekrunner would say that's only a placebo effect.
I did not say "money produces medals".
Armstronglivs wrote:
Well, if it's money that produces medals then we would see the medal tallies going through the roof for the wealthier countries. But, surprisingly, no. And then there is Africa, which is largely Third World...
You should stick to statistics and sums - you are clearly out of your depth anywhere else.
Subway Surfers wrote:
Ah but how clean were the Iberians before 1990?
rekrunner wrote:
What interests me more is how fast their performances were.
Clean or dirty, they were slower than the likes of Coe, Cram, Moorcroft, Jones, and Lopes.[quote]
[quote]myth debunker wrote:
When did Coe and Cram run 3-28 xx for 1500m? When did Moorcroft run sub 7-30 for 3000m? When did Lopes and Jones run 2h 6xx for the marathon?
Dates and performances please or what you have said here is just not true.
Subway said Iberians before 1990 ...
These Iberians did not run sub-3:28, sub 7:30, or sub 2:07.
I did not make fun of Garcia, but simply drew a line, which he did not pass. He would have with a different line. My analysis included the 112 fastest performers post 1990. I don't understand this strong interest, or see any value added, of drawing different lines, just to include #118 in the conversation. But I gave my method. Everyone is free to amend the analysis to include the next set of top runners, compare like to like, count medals, etc., and I would still ask, "why so few Spaniards, and by so little"?
Spanish armada wrote:
Let's Think This One Through wrote:
I remember rekrunner would make fun of Alberto Garcia, a confirmed EPO user, with a PB of 13:02.54 for not being able to run faster than the pre-90's 5k average (Garcia would be Spain's fastest 5k guy & NR holder if you throw out blood bag-Bezabeh, who's Ethiopian).
I remember seeing Garcia run a 13-05 for 5000m in a championship final for 5000m where he thumped several sub 13 min guys such as Sghyr, Mekonnen, and Kipketer. He was clearly in shape faster than 13 min over 5000m. A few years later he was going toe to toe with Gebreselassie in the world indoor champs over 3000m and both of them finished ahead of another sub 13 min man Kipkosgei.
But Rekrunner will probably say that EPO did not really benefit Garcia's performance level because his 5000 PR was 2 sec slower than Moorcroft's (who ran sub 13 10 on 1x) ....
Armstronglivs wrote:
Subway Surfers wrote:
19 head bobs and 9 turns of his head to the right to see if anyone was coming (something Steve Ovett or Lydiard once said slows you down dramatically). For the record I got him on this occasion at 50.5 for the last 400m but I know of others who claim he did 50.39.
Dr Fuentes of the notorious Operacion Puerto and the infamous "blood bags" (that a Spanish court ruled to be destroyed ) claimed his clients were in every major sport in Spain. His wife said that if she told what she knew about what was done for Barcelona and since it would "bring down Spanish sport". Even a Spanish Sports Minister has lately publicly admitted "Spain has a doping problem".
Wow!...no wonder the Spanish courts are keeping the names quiet (with the exception of a few -- cyclist Valverde who served a ban for his involvement in Puerto).
I guess some things are best kept secret - a lot of heroes came out of Barcelona that are in high esteem to this day.
Here's a big question for you rekrunner: Why are you incredulous with casual obsever's doping timeline data of the 5000m over several decades? He presents the improvement in times and it's relation to the type of PEDs & doping methods, and testing methods that were used over the different decades. Quite a fascinating chart -- but you've always seemed to get defensive and attempt to discredit his work at every opportunity.
rekrunner wrote:
I did not say "money produces medals".
Armstronglivs wrote:
Well, if it's money that produces medals then we would see the medal tallies going through the roof for the wealthier countries. But, surprisingly, no. And then there is Africa, which is largely Third World...
You should stick to statistics and sums - you are clearly out of your depth anywhere else.
So "investment" isn't money? I guess it must be EPO's then.
Sorry -- I'm posting too much about Spain, and my analysis of the top fastest times.
If you want a response, post your question in another thread.
This thread is about Clemence Calvin's new French National record, and the controversy surrounding that.
rekrunner wrote:
Sorry -- I'm posting too much about Spain, and my analysis of the top fastest times.
If you want a response, post your question in another thread.
This thread is about Clemence Calvin's new French National record, and the controversy surrounding that.
How to wade out of a swamp of your own creation.
rekrunner wrote:
Sorry -- I'm posting too much about Spain, and my analysis of the top fastest times.
If you want a response, post your question in another thread.
This thread is about Clemence Calvin's new French National record, and the controversy surrounding that.
And what's your take on it?
Armstronglivs wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Sorry -- I'm posting too much about Spain, and my analysis of the top fastest times.
If you want a response, post your question in another thread.
This thread is about Clemence Calvin's new French National record, and the controversy surrounding that.
How to wade out of a swamp of your own creation.
He is right though.
Let me know if you succeed.
Armstronglivs wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Sorry -- I'm posting too much about Spain, and my analysis of the top fastest times.
If you want a response, post your question in another thread.
This thread is about Clemence Calvin's new French National record, and the controversy surrounding that.
How to wade out of a swamp of your own creation.
Looks like a good performance for her and for France. If it is ratified, and she remains eligible, she should keep the record.
Okay...rekrunner wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Sorry -- I'm posting too much about Spain, and my analysis of the top fastest times.
If you want a response, post your question in another thread.
This thread is about Clemence Calvin's new French National record, and the controversy surrounding that.
And what's your take on it?