loudoun valley has 11 boys out of 24 in the state 3200 championship

Hani Saleem wrote:

Misunderstood Guy wrote:

The Olympics do not want the best people there.

Are you really claiming that the Olympics are not trying to gather the best athletes on the planet?

That's just silly.

It's not silly. If you look at the Kenyans or Ethiopians in distance running, or the USA in any distance swimming, the Olympics are biased towards the best few of all nations competing against each other. I've not done the math, but I'd bet semis and finals for swimming would be most likely a lot more usa were the Olympics set for top 10 than top 2. Top 2 from the USA is what swimming is now. I'd bet we'd see similar were we to do the same for African distance runners.

Back to HS track, my thinking as kids are maturing towards being adults, it's "unfair" given the wide variance in distribution of maturity for HS kids, to restrict attendance by school. The "blend" of states standards yet allowing for kids who win their way to states via place sniffs reasonably fair.

FWIW, vhsl strikes me as a little backwards, living in the Era of the "real" sports of football, basketball and baseball. It's not perfect, but strikes a balance reasonably well to offer kids a way to compete against other kids in their state, in a way that creates "fair" competition for the kids.

Coach Hunter, appreciate you sharing all this info.

How many coaches do you have on your staff? How do you manage this large a team and still give attention to your varsity?

No desire to cut those who don't buy into your program?

Yeah, that guy is waaaay too heated. Some of us here trained hard for all four years, with not a ton of talent btw, and ran faster than 9:52 and never made it out of their district/sectional meet. In PA the state qualifier is 9:31 in AAA (2 divisions) and I used to know a ton of guys barely competitive on the state level that would easily win that race. It's just a comment that 9:52 is not that impressive for guys, and to win a state championship in any state is a bit ridiculous when there are freshman almost breaking 9... In District 7 AAA in PA, 9:52 would not have even scored points last year...

Let's have 32 Divisions wrote:

Some fast times at the 2A VA state meet this week! Runner up was 10:15. The state champion solo'd a 9:52

1 Wilson-Cook, Oliver 12 Robert E. Le 9:52.36 Was 3A (until 2017, I think)

2 Sachs, Adam 12 Maggie Walke 10:15.62 Bumping Up to 3A for Fall 2019

3 Stearns, Cameron 9 Mathews 10:17.74

4 Zearfoss, Daniel 9 Glenvar High 10:18.32

5 Downs, Adam 11 Auburn 10:23.33

6 Neuwirth, Ben 11 Maggie Walke 10:24.69 Bumping Up to 3A for Fall 2019

7 Deel, Andrew 12 Wise Central 10:27.59

8 Leo, Vincent 12 Wilson Memor 10:36.41 Bumping Up to 3A for Fall 2019

9 Kelly, Clay 10 Riverheads 10:45.29

10 Csorba, Francis 12 Bluestone 10:48.07

11 Booher, Josh 12 John Battle 10:53.41

12 Zhai, Richard 11 Maggie Walke 10:57.38 Bumping Up to 3A for Fall 2019

13 Graham, Austin 11 Floyd County 11:05.89

14 Hersel, Nathaniel 11 Union High S 11:08.00

15 Ramsey, Ben 12 Radford High 11:18.34

16 Pridgen, Jordan 12 Galileo High 11:38.06

A few points about 2A Indoor State Meet Results:

1.) Most 2A schools do NOT have indoor track (because they can´t afford it or live too far from any indoor track facilities).

2.) Notice how many of those schools were or will be 3A.

3.) #1 kid also won XC in the fall.

4.) Maggie Walker won the XC team title.

To those who think the gift of genes is an indication of talent and superior success:

Let's look at the three Hunter boys whose genes come from the talented running specimens of Marc and Joan Hunter. The boys are very different, despite coming from the same gene pool.

The oldest one ran before Loudoun Valley had an indoor season, so we only have his XC and outdoor track times to look at. Still, it is clear that he was not an elite runner. Then came a phenom named Drew, whose indoor times were outside of the VA state competition sphere, due to his talent. And currently Marc and Joan have a son who is tearing up the track, having just won two VA individual state indoor championships (1600 and 3200), and he also ran in the victorious 4 x 800 relay team. Though he is another talented Hunter as a runner, he's not of Drew's caliber.

A relative comparison between each boy's best , but only through Feb 28 of his senior year at LVHS, from the oldest boy to Drew to the youngest. These are from MileSplit:

5000m XC: 17:03.40>>>14:20.80>>>15:14.40

800m: 2:15.89 (Outdoor)>>>1:52.98 (Outdoor)>>>1:56.10 (Outdoor)

1000m: --none-->>>2:28.95 (Indoor)>>>2:32.48 (Indoor)

1600m: 4:59.60 (Outdoor)>>>4:03.88 (Outdoor)>>>4:17.15 (Outdoor)

Mile: --none-->>>3:57.81 (Indoor)>>>4:16.67 (Indoor)

3200m: 10:57.55 (Outdoor)>>>8:59.67 (Indoor)>>>9:07.24 (Outdoor)

2 Mile: --none-->>>8:42.51 (Indoor)>>>9:14.55 (Indoor)

Same coaches...same gene pool...very different results. Just because a kid has great genes doesn't guarantee great success. In fact, on the current LVHS team, there are two brothers who are very different in their levels of success. One is a national caliber athlete, like his older brother who is running at the Div I level in college. The other is just not as talented as his two older brothers.

Genes alone don't guarantee anything. Maybe, just maybe good coaching is a factor in helping any individual reach or exceed potential. The dynamic duo of Marc and Joan Hunter fit the bill. Not everyone they train will be a champ, or will be willing to work hard enough at it to be of championship caliber. Joan gave some good examples of various types of athletes they have coached. Probably not a single kid would have been at the level reached if not for his or her coaches.

Genes rule wrote:

I guarantee some kids work as hard as the 9:20 kids but only run 11 minutes or even slower.

It has nothing to do with hard work, either. Every good coach knows this and is vigilant to prevent overtraining.

Running fast is a set of skills gained over a period of many years like any other skill. Most of those skills aren't overtly about running and were in play long before the runner started training. That you don't know what they are doesn't mean they're not real.

But of course you'll insist that it's all genes, so pony up. Precisely which variants of which genes set the 9:20's apart from the 11's?

Hunter Fam Fan in VA wrote:

Coach Hunter, appreciate you sharing all this info.

How many coaches do you have on your staff? How do you manage this large a team and still give attention to your varsity?

No desire to cut those who don't buy into your program?

Coach Hunter,

Do you hold Saturday practices? Do you make them mandatory?

Also, do you hold Summer Running practices? Saturdays too?

Thanks,

H.S. Coach #64391

ric flair woo wrote:

Coach Joan Hunter wrote:

BTW, the pacer they do in PE is a good one to look at too if you would like good kids.

Do you remember what Drew could get on the pacer test? I'm extremely curious.

Drew doesn't remember exactly, but he did remark that he didn't try very hard in PE class...sigh. I would guess that he ran in the 130s or 140s.

Hunter Fam Fan in VA wrote:

Coach Hunter, appreciate you sharing all this info.

How many coaches do you have on your staff? How do you manage this large a team and still give attention to your varsity?

No desire to cut those who don't buy into your program?

We have had varying numbers of coaches since we started at Valley. The most we have ever had during cross country is 5 including both of us, though usually only Marc and I , and one of our assistants, are present every day.

We have tried a lot of different things to manage the numbers. We do a pre-training warm up routine where we usually break the kids into groups and put a coach with each group. We change the groups around- it might be freshmen, sophs, etc, or it might be kids with birthdays from January- March, April- June, etc, or last name A-G, or whatever you can think of. That way, kids mingle more than they would if we just did it the same all the time. The rest of our warm up is done as one big group. After that, each ability level has their own workout to do, and we usually send a coach out with the beginners or kids who like to be slackers.

I would say that my varsity type kids, really my kids thru about number 15 or 16 or even a bit more are very independent and need less supervision, and they probably do get less of my time than the beginners, especially at the beginning of a season. I don't time workouts- each kid has to have their own watch and time their own efforts and report to me when I ask them what they just ran (plus log their workouts afterwards). I just watch and ask questions and maybe adapt things as they go thru a workout based on what I am seeing. Distance runs are on their own, though sometimes I will go out and run with a group or ride the ElliptiGo and go back and forth between groups.

And yes, I have a huge desire to cut kids who are not trying, not doing workouts when my eyeballs aren't on them, or who are just troublemakers in general. I just don't know how to make something like that objective. We have had 'tryouts' in the past when our numbers were just too huge in track where kids had to hit a certain time or they got cut, but that eliminated very few of the kids that are the problems, unfortunately, and eliminated a few kids that really wanted to be there (but were not very good runners). I don't know what the answer is. Right now, at the beginning of spring track we have over 170 kids on our roster and are going to need to make some cuts...just can't handle that number, especially given how short of a time we are allowed on the track each day due to lacrosse practice, and soon, soccer and lacrosse games.

H.S. Coach #64391 wrote:

Hunter Fam Fan in VA wrote:

Coach Hunter, appreciate you sharing all this info.

How many coaches do you have on your staff? How do you manage this large a team and still give attention to your varsity?

No desire to cut those who don't buy into your program?

Coach Hunter,

Do you hold Saturday practices? Do you make them mandatory?

Also, do you hold Summer Running practices? Saturdays too?

Thanks,

H.S. Coach #64391

Yes, we have Saturday practices, but once the invitationals start, most of our JV kids who aren't racing on Saturdays have a workout to do on their own (usually a long run for the distance kids).

We do summer conditioning all summer except for mandatory dead week. We can't require kids to come, but we encourage them to come every day that they are in town, and most of our kids are there every day except during vacations. We do go 6 days a week in the summer as well. I love summer conditioning and I think the kids do too. They often go out and do things afterwards together, parents bring popsicles and watermelon at least once a week, no pressures of school...it's just a fun relaxed time that sets them up for success in the fall.

You knucklehead. You literally made the point that genes are much more important than training. LV has kids run from 15 minutes to 20 minutes under the same training. You went so far as to point out that they had 3 members who had the identical upbringing and training but still had much different results. Having the same parents does not give 3 people the same genes unless they are identical triplets. Think if one was a girl. You would not expect her to run as fast as her brothers even with the same training. I don’t know why you don’t want to recognize that Drew Hunter is naturally faster than his brothers and much faster than most of the other kids on the LV team regardless of the training regimen.

Blue genes wrote:

Let's look at the three Hunter boys whose genes come from the talented running specimens of Marc and Joan Hunter. The boys are very different, despite coming from the same gene pool.

The oldest one ran before Loudoun Valley had an indoor season, so we only have his XC and outdoor track times to look at. Still, it is clear that he was not an elite runner. Then came a phenom named Drew, whose indoor times were outside of the VA state competition sphere, due to his talent. And currently Marc and Joan have a son who is tearing up the track, having just won two VA individual state indoor championships (1600 and 3200), and he also ran in the victorious 4 x 800 relay team. Though he is another talented Hunter as a runner, he's not of Drew's caliber.

You've messed up your order here. Drew is the oldest Hunter boy, then a brother who is one year his junior, then the brother who is currently a senior at Valley. And Drew never competed in VHSL indoor track because it was sanctioned in Loudoun County until after he graduated, not because he was so much better than everyone else in the state (though he was, obviously, elite).

What part of PA are you in? The AAA 3200 @ Wpial is going to be even faster this year. But to your point, there is no way a 9:52 should be contending for a state title, let alone winning one.. heck there is almost always one or two frosh that break 9:50 in the Wpial. 6 Divisions in a state like VA is uncalled for..

D10, but if I recall who you are correctly, I race you (and District 7) a lot. I’m not trying to give away who I am too easily, but I was in the 3k at the same meet as you two weeks ago.

Alaska (pop 752,000) has four high school divisions. Idaho (pop 1.7 mil) has five Arkansas (pop. 3 mil) has seven Though I very much liked VA better at 3 divisions than 6, I am not sure that there is a "right" number. Last year the smallest divsion in VA had a 3200 meter runner who ran 9:08 (outdoor). Some years are more competitive than others. I would guess that very few small schools sponsor indoor. In any case, whatever the structure or number of divisions, the kids can only line up against whatever competition is there.

DistanceRunner68 wrote:

6 Divisions in a state like VA is uncalled for..

old, old VHSL participant wrote:

Arkansas (pop. 3 mil) has seven

wtf???

IL has 12 million and only has 3.

ric flair woo wrote:

old, old VHSL participant wrote:

Arkansas (pop. 3 mil) has seven

wtf???

Yeah, using population as a constant of proportionality, that would mean Texas would have 66 divisions!

So I guess 32 was an underestimate...

I am very impressed that you come on here and are so upfront and honest with your program. Thank you. Your coaching ability is admired and your attitude is very appreciated. My question is directed towards your girls. Does your training differ for females vs. males? I notice that your girls team isn't at the "elite" level that your boys team has achieved. Do you feel this is due to desire or that they don't seem to thrive off of this type of training quite as much as the male athlete.