Real Low Mileage performers.

Richard -

Are you healhty now? If your goal is a marathon, it would sound like you are.

At age 32, I had my 2nd best year of my career. And had 1 child of 2 years old. At age 33, ran 3:52. I think you just have to train smarter at that age. All the miles you ran from 24-32 do not just go away.

Money on the other side, does go away. I know sponsorships from shoe companies and money from the athletic fund are hard to come by in England.

If you need help after taking 2 week off after the marathon, let me know and I will share some of my fall building workouts.

js

Jim,

I had my best years post collegiant setting 1500M PB 3:51, 3000M 8:04 , 5000M 14:10 using more threshold

based training ( to Seb Coe's point staying in a certain heart rate range away from the red line and alot it) using

alot of high volume short repetition / short recovery

workouts. The one element that see with you early build up workouts are they are based on TIME vs. actual distance and

this must have also helped you stay within your fitness level and keep a level of freshness as well...correct ?

I also did notice the Igloi influence with how you started

you workouts with the 10x100M and other shorter sets. I'm

currently planning on running 1500M - 5000M next summer.

Could you also share your fall building workouts ? I am toward the end of a break and plan on starting training 1st week of Oct.

when i was running 1:50-1:52.

mon-3x(2x200) w/ 100m rest b/w 2's and 5min b/w sets

tues-30 @ 7min pace

wed- 3x300 @ 37 w/ 7-8min rest

thurs- 30min @ 7min pace

Fri- pre race

Sat- Race

This is definetly a great thread.

I think as a whole the running community misinterprets the value of weekly mileage. Overall mileage is simply one component to an overall program. It will vary dramitically between running experience and specific events. One's priorities should be on a complete program. Nutrition, sleep, running technique, specific progressive training-(technique drills, intervals of varying distances, longer steady runs, proper recover, strenthening of muscles/tendons/ligaments, flexibility etc...). If runners would spend more time improving these other components, there would be far fewer injuries and a much higher chance of reaching performance goals.

After my sophomore year of cross-country and track, and my first year on the team, I asked my coach, John Kurtz (but still to this day, 'Coach Kurtz'): "If I run a 1000 miles over the summer, will you give me a 1000 mile club long sleeve t-shirt to wear?" To this day, I wonder what he was thinking? Great? He won't hit the goal? He will be really good next fall? Of course, he said sure. York High school, The Long Green Line, had numerous athletes each year run over a 1000 miles, June 1-August 31. I had my 30 or 31 day calender in boxes on the Frig, and kept track of each run for the day, and total for the week. After running 9:21.7 and 4:31 for 2 miles and the mile that spring, I logged 1013 miles that summer.

Had a great white long sleeve t-shirt that I wore under my jersy in every race that year, and almost all the way through the outdoor track season.

I went back 6 or 7 years later, and ran some of my course. They were all short. I remember running my longest run, 63 mintues - 10 miles is what I counted. 25 mintues and change - hey, that's a five mile run. Looking back, my best guess is that I ran 800 miles. But most important, is that I thought I ran a 1000 miles.

Also, that was the summer of '76. John Walker wins the gold, in an all-black New Zealand uniform with beads around his neck, and long hair. Rick Wolhuter won the bronze in the 800m. I remember getting in runs, and then going downstairs in the basement and watching the Olympics. No, I never thought I would get there someday. But John Walker was my hero when they were over.

In 1983 in Stockholm, I raced the 1500m and won in 3:36, coming from 9th to win in the final 150 meters. John Walker was in the race. I had run 13:19 about a week earlier at age 23. That night after the dinner in the hotel, I was sitting at a table, thinking about the 5000 kroners I had won by winning the race (thinking around $1k), and $100 to be on the line. Big payday. And John Walker walks over to my table, sits down, and starts a conversation. Asking me about my training, my times, my coach. I bet I never asked him one question... what do you ask a former world record holder?!

4 days later, I was put into the Dream Mile at Oslo and finished 2nd to Steve Scott, running 13.1 from the 1500m to the mile finish line, and 3:50.59. I read in the papers, John Walker stating that one of the favorites to win the 5000m at the World Championships, was me.

What he did not know, is that was trained to peak, and I had started to peak running the 5k at Oslo. I was usually able to hold a peak for 4-5 weeks. Also, my mileage was in the 40-50 range, which is not good when you have to run a 5000m head on one day, two days later the semi, and two days later the final. I won another USA v Nordic 1500m in 3:36 about 2 weeks before the Games, then did not make the World 5k final. Doug Padilla did, and Jim Hill and I did not.

js

Oh Man I love this thread, and the Rono one!

Do you keep in touch with John Walker now, Jim? Yes, he was my hero too...

Jim you ran International XC in Japan and other places after your "peak". A young guy who I coach went over there, stayed with Jeff Scheibler, ran with you in a 12k I think? You obviously enjoyed it all well after the early 90s???? Young guy was thrilled to meet you! :)

Jim, apologoes if I missed this if stated, but how important is it to practice "race pace" throughout the whole year? Did Coe multi-pace training influence you?

Cheers

Skuj

I really believe the pace training, or training at the pace over shorter distances is one of my keys to successful training. As one write wrote, more than one way to skin a cat, or more than one way to train to race fast.

Usually, the fastest 400 I would run in practice was 56 seconds. Mike was trying to get me to "float" a 400 after runnin 3-4 miles of various intervals. Somedays, 500(300) 400(200)400 after a bunch of 250's and 200's. But always - run a relaxed pace. Almost like carrying a Pringle potato chip in one hand, and running a 56 400. Eyes half shut, looking up the track rather than thinking on how you were feeling. This was sub 3:50 pace for the mile. This was the pace that needed to be comfortable.

If you only train at 53 pace when you start to peak, 57 pace feels so uncomfortable. Think of when people run heats in the NCAA's or USATF's. They run 3:45 to qualify for the final, and feel awful. Why? Because for the first 3 laps, they were running at 63 pace, when training had been at 58.

I rememember reading about El G's training, and noted he ran 10 400's in 55. Do the math: 55-150-245-3:26 WR.

I think this is most evident at the marathon. Most people train at 5k or 10k pace, and throw in 3k and 1.5k for faster workouts. Then on marathon day, and this is for people that run 3-4 hours as well, they run a minute slower per mile. It hurts. I remember one person I coached, could run at 7 minute pace, or had to walk. 8 minute pace hurt their legs after mile 18.

For Seb's multi tier, I think I did some of this in my build up phase in the fall. But not that much in the track season. 1992 was the only year we had to, when my vo2 was so low. Dr Dave suggested to Mike, that I run 1 workout per week of slow intervals: miles in 5 m's, 800's in 2:30. All to build vo2.

Dr Dave always asked me: "what do you want - a big engine (high vo2) and 2 or 3 gears? Or, a small engine with 6 gears (high lactic acid tolerance, 150% and above)?" The trick he said, was to try to raise both. The problem was the body says, if this is high, the other one does not have to be. I believe that was one of his goals in treadmill testing people like Coe, myself, and others - how to help us train smarter.

I saw John Walker many years ago, mid-90's. Steve Scott and I talk regulary, as he is an ASICS sponsored school, and I am able to help him. Steve does talk to John, but maybe once a year.

js

Thank you so much for your time here Jim, and for your most informative responses.

I'd echo Skuj's thanks to Jim Spivey. It is always really useful to read about what top athletes did in training, particularly when related to their races and their feelings/reactions to their training. Thanks Jim!

Thanks also to all the other contributors who have asked such useful questions.

Great thread!

tb

I really believe the pace training, or training at the pace over shorter distances is one of my keys to successful training. As one write wrote, more than one way to skin a cat, or more than one way to train to race fast. ------------

I think this is most evident at the marathon. Most people train at 5k or 10k pace, and throw in 3k and 1.5k for faster workouts. Then on marathon day, and this is for people that run 3-4 hours as well, they run a minute slower per mile. It hurts. I remember one person I coached, could run at 7 minute pace, or had to walk. 8 minute pace hurt their legs after mile 18.

Golden advice Jim :-)

bap

JS, thank you for all your replies.

What is the key to marathon training? How would you train for the marathon?

Thanks!!

bump

Jim - great stories from your racing / training days. thanks for the time you have taken to post and the insight. Perhaps if you get your website up you can continue with this information and additional training log info. Some of the old race pix from your career are certainly worth seeing as well.

Marathon training -

Having never run one, but trained numerous JSRC club members to PR's, I would take my thoughts with their are many other better programs.

I think that people overtrain the last 3 weeks before a marathon, and then, try and come back too quickly after it is completed. With that in mind:

Last long run 2.5-3.0 weeks before the race. 19-21 miles. If your body runs out of fuel around this point, why would you want to "injure" yourself so close to the race? Dr Dave said, that he saw it both ways. Sometimes, only do long runs in this range; and others, need to experience the fatigue feeling. Your call.

Last 8 days: Saturday, 4 repeat 1200's. Sunday, 60 m's long run. M and TU recovery days. Wednesday, 3 miles at race pace, on the track. This is the the workout that I think helps the most in the mental prep. If someone is going to run 7:45 pace, yet trained at 6-6:30 pace on the track, 7:45 pace seesm sooo slow. It is good to get an accurate pace down before the race, as to know what it feels like.

Thursday - 35 m's

Friday - off day

Saturday - 25 m's and strides

Sunday - 10 m's wu and strides, race

why strides - to burn some of the lactic acid that accumulated on the warm-up run off.

After the race, no running for 7-10 days. This is almost impossible, as all people I coach fight to get it to 5 days. I quote a famous marathoner, Ed Eyestone: "I have taken 10-14 days off, and I have run 2 days after the marathon. It is a wash." He was my roommate in Barcleona in 1992. If you run right away, you are very sore, but work the soreness out through running. If you wait, you body heals, and when you start up, not as sore. I think taking time off to let the body heal is the way to go. Ed said, you might as well as enjoy the time off.

For long runs, I would have the individual run 12-14 miles slow, then work up to 19-21 miles. They would run this every other week. The in-between week, they would run 1.5-2.0 miles wu, then 7-9 miles at DMP (My phrase, Dave Martin Pace) tempo run. Not a hard tempo run, but slightly uncomfortable. RW would say cruise pace. Thinking: one week work with a pulse below 140-150; the next below 160-165. Multi-tier training on a weekly basis.

js

js

What about High school XC? Would you incorporate lower miles and faster repeats throughout the 10 week season. Or do you believ that longer intervals and tempo runs are critical to success? I am looking to run best during xc and not worried about track.

Jim Spivey wrote:

Indian Relay, 8 laps on the field. Ran Indian file, and when the whistle blew, you moved to the front. This was for 5 minutes, and I wrote "surge" to the front.

then, 4-man relay, for a total of 8 laps. I had three others on my team, and was in competition with 6 or 7 other teams. I can remember working hard to move my team up, and slapping hands with my partner.

Then, they broke us up into 2-man teams, and Peter paired me with Seb. I am sure I was scared. The workout was getting long, and I had my watch going from the beginning. I looked down, and we were well past an hour of runnning by now.

Off we all went, I was in the lead group.

Classic! Reminds me of high school. Who says that training can't be fun? Not only can it be, it should be!

bump

Jim - Thanks for the comments, like you say I think training smarter is the key. I'm actually really enjoying my running at the moment due mainly to the fact that the marathon is a totally fresh challenge. I suspect I will race track next summer at club level so the building workouts after marathon will be appreciated. As I suggested previously it will be interesting to see how the mileage helps or hinders me seeing as my training ethos thru my careeer has been quality rather than quantity.

LL,

Maybe what would work best, is to write some general training when you recover from the M, and put it on this page. It would be specific for you, but may give an oversight to others on this thread to building base from a smarter is better attitude.

I would be using a lot of the training I did pre 1991and 1993, when I really able to have great vo2 numbers in May.

js