Kid running after kipchoge wrote:
800ftw. wrote:These people today including Farah can run 26:30
No GOAT is going to be remembered as a 26:46 guy who could have gone 26:30 but never did- that's a GOAT???
Silly statement, people remember the racing, not running 16 seconds quicker in a time trial.
All he does is win wrote:
rojo wrote:Are you crazy? There is a thread debating whether Mo Farah is the GOAT.
I chime and and try to provide evidence.
You claim it's "Impossible to compare two tactical 10ks". No, it's very possible. In fact, it would be irresponsible as a journalist to not compare today's race to Bekele's 2003 race since they had a) the same winning time and b) same lask 1k. And the comparison is striking.
We have provided this comparison in our men's 10k recap which was just published.
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2017/08/unbeatable-amazing-mo-farah-wins-10000-2017-worlds-earns-10th-global-gold-toughest-race-life/What you miss too (because your analysis is always skin deep) is that Farah wasn't trying to push the pace. He was trying to win the race.
He won. You don't know if he could have lived with a faster time but he didn't need to.
Simply the greatest distance racer in history and I'm amazed people care more about paced fast times than winning where it matters.
I think really it's about protecting the athletes you grew up watching.
lol short memories indeed... Protection? Or projection? No one is as protected as Mo Syringes...
Paced times? 😂 How far was Bekele paced in his world records?
- Second half of his 10k WR was lead and solo'd
- Closed the last 2k of his 5k WR in sub-5:00 solo.. (Bekele takes the lead well before 3k and goes through in ~7:37.. Mo's PR is 7:32 🤣)
How far was Farah paced to his 26:46? (~8400m??)
When has he had the cajones to put in real work since?
rojo wrote:
Dope Train wrote:One word - EPO
So Farah is the GOAT becuase anyone who is better than Farah is on EPO?
That argument doesn't work for me as we don't know if anyone is clean and given the allegations agains the NOP, one would be foolish to not at least wonder.
Plus, it's not like Bekele or Geb didnt do anything once EPO testing became widespread. Bekele is still competing and a monster when healthy.
He ran 2:03:03 in 2016. So help me understand this. He was on EPO in 2003 and that's why he was better than Farah. But what abot in 2016 when testing is stringent?? Please explain that to me.
Ask the runners on the circuit if they think the 10,000m WR was run clean (granted this is only perception and not proof). There are a number of factors that lead me and others to doubt some of his performances (the era he ran in, how much faster his records are compared to the current era, the poor doping controls in East Africa, his onset of injuries shortly after the introduction of the biological passport etc). Granted there are plausible explanations for all these. If in 20-40 years nobody has run faster than 26:30 / 26:40 I think the nature of our debate would be different. Also, it's still possible to microdose with EPO in the current era and get away with it due to the nature of the biological passport. This is particularly so if you live in a country with poor doping control (Ethiopia < UK / US) where out of competition tests may not be effective in catching cheats. For the record, I'd love for them both to be clean but my personal feeling is that Bekele wasn't / isn't.
Enough of the doping talk. Until noone is caught they are clean. So Bekele and Mo clean- Bekele way better than Mo. Mo's times don't get close to Bekele's.
With the time trial, paced records in the era of no EPO testing, what titles were at stake? What medals were awarded?
To my way of thinking, records outside of championships need to be regarded in a different light.
This is one of the reasons Bolt is a legend, he set records when medals were at stake.
Dope Train wrote:
rojo wrote:So Farah is the GOAT becuase anyone who is better than Farah is on EPO?
That argument doesn't work for me as we don't know if anyone is clean and given the allegations agains the NOP, one would be foolish to not at least wonder.
Plus, it's not like Bekele or Geb didnt do anything once EPO testing became widespread. Bekele is still competing and a monster when healthy.
He ran 2:03:03 in 2016. So help me understand this. He was on EPO in 2003 and that's why he was better than Farah. But what abot in 2016 when testing is stringent?? Please explain that to me.
Ask the runners on the circuit if they think the 10,000m WR was run clean (granted this is only perception and not proof). There are a number of factors that lead me and others to doubt some of his performances (the era he ran in, how much faster his records are compared to the current era, the poor doping controls in East Africa, his onset of injuries shortly after the introduction of the biological passport etc). Granted there are plausible explanations for all these. If in 20-40 years nobody has run faster than 26:30 / 26:40 I think the nature of our debate would be different. Also, it's still possible to microdose with EPO in the current era and get away with it due to the nature of the biological passport. This is particularly so if you live in a country with poor doping control (Ethiopia < UK / US) where out of competition tests may not be effective in catching cheats. For the record, I'd love for them both to be clean but my personal feeling is that Bekele wasn't / isn't.
Ok so it's not crazy to speculate that all the running talent went to the marathon. Maybe that is worth considering for the stagnation in track time progression and depth of field. But the marathon record keeps dropping fairly consistently since the EPO era. Now there's suddenly good testing. But Bekele runs 2:03:03. How do you reconcile that?
rojo wrote:
800ftw. wrote:Why are you showing old races of Bekele winning in 26:49 and attempting to compare to today's run? It's so irrelevant and impossible to compare like for like two tactical 10ks. Farah didn't even open up on the last lap, only gave it the beans in the last 120m.
Just a poor show by you all round.
Are you crazy? There is a thread debating whether Mo Farah is the GOAT.
I chime and and try to provide evidence.
You claim it's "Impossible to compare two tactical 10ks". No, it's very possible. In fact, it would be irresponsible as a journalist to not compare today's race to Bekele's 2003 race since they had a) the same winning time and b) same lask 1k. And the comparison is striking.
We have provided this comparison in our men's 10k recap which was just published.
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2017/08/unbeatable-amazing-mo-farah-wins-10000-2017-worlds-earns-10th-global-gold-toughest-race-life/LRC wrote:
Quick Take: Despite what we said above (Mo Farah may be the greatest championship distance runner in history), the stats reveal he wouldn’t be able to beat Bekele in his prime
On the BBC, the commentators were calling tonight’s win Farah’s toughest as the Africans threw everything they had at Farah – today’s race featured the most sub-27 performances in an Olympic or World Championship final in history (7) – and made it an honest race and yet Farah still did what he almost always does – win.
Tonight’s win may have been the most deserved for Farah, but as great as Farah was tonight, he would not have beaten Kenenisa Bekele in 2003. The parallels between the 2003 Paris 10,000 final and tonight’s race are many.
The winning time was 26:49 in both races.
The final 1k was run in 2:29 in both races.
The biggest difference is Bekele ran both his second half and last lap MUCH faster than Farah did tonight.
Tonight, Farah closed his 26:49 race in 13:13 with his last two laps being, 61.92 and 55.63.
Contrast that to Bekele in 2003. We suggest you sit down. Are you ready for this?
Bekele closed in 12:57 with his last two laps being 61.7 and 54.9.
Yes, 12:57. Oh, and he looked easy doing it. He was lapping runners and finished out in lane 2.
Bekele's first 5k was run much, much slower than Farah's first 5k, in case the maths eludes you:
26:49-12:57 = 13:52
We have NO IDEA however fast Farah 'coulda, woulda, shoulda' run his second 5k given such a pedestrian start.
As I said, you cannot compare two tactical races especially in events as long and varied as the 10k. The pacing throughout both races was VASTLY different.
I'm not saying Bekele or Farah are better than the other, I'm saying you cannot look at one race over the other and say X runner would have won Y race.
Farahs last 120m was rapid, he found an extra gear no other 10k runner has ever shown. He only did enough to win on the last lap. How can you say with certainty that with Bekele on his shoulder he wouldn't push harder in the last 800m. Farah didn't look tired to me. Or that bekele wouldn't be tired from leading with Farah sitting on him, and Farah the 3:28 man might breeze past in the last 60m as El G did in 2004? You just DON'T KNOW.
Therefore it's conjecture with the aim of only trying to belittle Farah's achievements and it's a poor show by you.
Winning is what matters and Mo has got more wins than the other GOATS in the 5/10km.
He also holds the British all-comers record in the 1500m! He is faster than Cram, Coe and Ovett ever were, and he's a 5000m/10,000m guy!
He is faster at 1500m than Bekele and Geb were and holds more wins in big events. So what if Mo never runs the marathon?
doot doot wrote:
Dope Train wrote:Ask the runners on the circuit if they think the 10,000m WR was run clean (granted this is only perception and not proof). There are a number of factors that lead me and others to doubt some of his performances (the era he ran in, how much faster his records are compared to the current era, the poor doping controls in East Africa, his onset of injuries shortly after the introduction of the biological passport etc). Granted there are plausible explanations for all these. If in 20-40 years nobody has run faster than 26:30 / 26:40 I think the nature of our debate would be different. Also, it's still possible to microdose with EPO in the current era and get away with it due to the nature of the biological passport. This is particularly so if you live in a country with poor doping control (Ethiopia < UK / US) where out of competition tests may not be effective in catching cheats. For the record, I'd love for them both to be clean but my personal feeling is that Bekele wasn't / isn't.
Ok so it's not crazy to speculate that all the running talent went to the marathon. Maybe that is worth considering for the stagnation in track time progression and depth of field. But the marathon record keeps dropping fairly consistently since the EPO era. Now there's suddenly good testing. But Bekele runs 2:03:03. How do you reconcile that?
I agree that there is a consensus that top runners move straight to the marathon now rather than track. However, consider that Karoki finished third in the London marathon this year and was out of the medals last night. London is probably the most competitive marathon around. Also I wouldn't say the current testing is 'good'. It may be improved but the biological passport is far from perfect. We'll take a rain check on this discussion for 20-30 years and see how many runners break / come even remotely close to Bekele's 10k record. Until then I will continue to look at those times with skepticism but with a burning desire that they were run naturally.
ExpertKipWatcher wrote:
With the time trial, paced records in the era of no EPO testing, what titles were at stake? What medals were awarded?
To my way of thinking, records outside of championships need to be regarded in a different light.
This is one of the reasons Bolt is a legend, he set records when medals were at stake.
Uh so has bekele, he has the record for the fastest Olympic 5&10k, the fastest world 10k and 3rd fastest world 5k
And his fastest championship 5&10k are faster than Mo's PRs
Rapo. wrote:
Kid running after kipchoge wrote:No GOAT is going to be remembered as a 26:46 guy who could have gone 26:30 but never did- that's a GOAT???
Silly statement, people remember the racing, not running 16 seconds quicker in a time trial.
Without looking who was the 5k champ in 2003?
Kid running after kipchoge wrote:
Until noone is caught they are clean.
LOL, they are all on drugs.
ExpertKipWatcher wrote:
This is one of the reasons Bolt is a legend, he set records when medals were at stake.
You can't compare sprinting and distance running on this matter.
Gotta bee wrote:
People talking about how bekele ran fast only in the EPO era
He ran a 26:25 after that era ended, and like 26:43 which is still faster than mo has ever run in 2011, and a 26:46 or so in 09' worlds...
Also ran a sub 13 championship 5k and like a 12:55 in 2012
You idiots on here banging on about times. Do you really think that Mo would have not still won if the second place runner had posted a 26.30 or even 26.25. He does what he needs to in order to win.
He can't run 26:30, let alone 26:20-26:25.
rojo wrote:
Dope Train wrote:One word - EPO
So Farah is the GOAT becuase anyone who is better than Farah is on EPO?
That argument doesn't work for me as we don't know if anyone is clean and given the allegations agains the NOP, one would be foolish to not at least wonder.
Plus, it's not like Bekele or Geb didnt do anything once EPO testing became widespread. Bekele is still competing and a monster when healthy.
He ran 2:03:03 in 2016. So help me understand this. He was on EPO in 2003 and that's why he was better than Farah. But what abot in 2016 when testing is stringent?? Please explain that to me.
I'll explain that to you Rojo.
The marathon is about efficiency and running economy, where as a race that lasts for 26 mins with a burn up at the end is more attributed to maximum performance parameters, of which EPO will have a greater impact.
never seen farah run 27 flat closing in 53 easing off. never seen farah front run the last 2k of a 5k in 4:57. never seen farah outkick lagat, geb, and el gerouj in good form. never seen farah run a really fast time except in the 1500. never seen farah do anything meaingful before his late 20s, just like Rashid Ramzi.
0 world records
000000000000000000000.0000000000000000000000 WORLD RECORDS
just like the elite families are above the law
they make the laws for , everyone else but not themselves.
very like doping in track , simples ...........
if got the elites backing that run track then above these rules
and will enable you to do so .
alot is social programming too
as know pro sport is used now to move society as want and destroy it too.
full sprecture social programming through sport
how many times do i need to say wada created and there to control doping
and control the narrative .
gjkgjhgjkhg wrote:
never seen farah run 27 flat closing in 53 easing off. never seen farah front run the last 2k of a 5k in 4:57. never seen farah outkick lagat, geb, and el gerouj in good form. never seen farah run a really fast time except in the 1500. never seen farah do anything meaingful before his late 20s, just like Rashid Ramzi.
Never seen Farah win ten straight track distance running titles at the global champs. Oh hang on, I did see that. I must be confusing him with everybody else who ever lived.