Sagan's elbow came out after Cavendish began falling, which was after Cavendish did his standard head/shoulder butt move. This is exactly what my elbow does when a rider bumps into me like that. Exactly.
Of course, Sagan could have maybe looked back, then swerved into Cavendish, just like Cavendish did in the Olympics.
Thank for trying, though.
If Cav was in 'perfect position' he wouldn't have been that close to the barrier and he wouldn't be out of the Tour with injuries. Shocked how many people here are sympathetic to Cav.His choice to race from that position and try to shoot that gap - he has done similar moves successfully in the past but no one around him is obligated to compensate for him during a sprint. He was a victim of his own poor position and his physical limitations (no way that flick of an elbow takes down Greipel or Kittel).
Precious Roy wrote:
Cavendish is no angel, but this is on Sagan. Too many people are focusing on the instant before the crash. The action starts a few seconds before that. Sagan and Cavendish are both trying to use Demare as their lead out man. Cavendish has the perfect line behind Demare as they start drifting towards the barrier. Sagan initially thinks about staying in the middle or going to his left instead of swinging right with Cavendish and Demare. But then he sees that Cavendish and Demare are charging hard and will be contending for the sprint. Sagan then tries to cut in between Demare and Cavendish to get up on Demare's slip stream, but Sagan cannot accelerate hard enough to get past Cavendish. Sagan then tries to force Cavendish to the right by extending his elbow before the two are right up against the barrier. This causes Cavendish to try to go around Sagan by swinging right to the edge of the barrier. Cavendish wants to follow Demare back to the middle of the road, but Sagan keeps moving towards the barrier and collides with Cavendish.
There was no reason for Sagan to keep going wide at that point. Demare started cutting back to the center. Sagan was clear to sprint, but did not want to give Cavendish room to get in his slip stream and sneak past him in the last 10m. Sagan had poor positioning coming into the sprint. He tried to make up for it by pushing Cavendish out of Demare's slipstream. He eventually was able to get Cavendish out of Demare's slipstream by moving him up against the barrier. But that move just meant that Sagan would have had Cavendish on his shoulder at the critical final sprint. Sagan wanted to make Cavendish brake and be completely behind him by positioning himself on the barrier. But Sagan was not fast enough to do this without making contact with Cavendish. Sagan did a bad job setting up his sprint and took it out on Cavendish who was in perfect position.
The GOAT... a great listen/watch and perspective
Ultradude wrote:
Wow! I can't believe they disqualified the best cyclist in the world from the TDF. I figured maybe he should lose today's result but completely out of the tour is really surprising. Very controversial. After watching the replays many times I think they should share the blame. Sagan's elbow was probably more than what was justified, but Cav was trying to thread the needle through a gap that really wasn't there. This sucks because Sagan is the most entertaining rider in the race, like Usain Bolt is to track and field. But I guess they wanted to send a message for the safety of all riders that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated.
If any of you would look at other videos of finishing sprints you see a regular occurrence of elbows and bumps.
All of you cycling geeks know that Cav has a reputation for being nasty with elbows and nudges to get through to his path.
Precious Roy wrote:
Cavendish is no angel, but this is on Sagan. Too many people are focusing on the instant before the crash. The action starts a few seconds before that. Sagan and Cavendish are both trying to use Demare as their lead out man. Cavendish has the perfect line behind Demare as they start drifting towards the barrier. Sagan initially thinks about staying in the middle or going to his left instead of swinging right with Cavendish and Demare. But then he sees that Cavendish and Demare are charging hard and will be contending for the sprint. Sagan then tries to cut in between Demare and Cavendish to get up on Demare's slip stream, but Sagan cannot accelerate hard enough to get past Cavendish. Sagan then tries to force Cavendish to the right by extending his elbow before the two are right up against the barrier. This causes Cavendish to try to go around Sagan by swinging right to the edge of the barrier. Cavendish wants to follow Demare back to the middle of the road, but Sagan keeps moving towards the barrier and collides with Cavendish.
There was no reason for Sagan to keep going wide at that point. Demare started cutting back to the center. Sagan was clear to sprint, but did not want to give Cavendish room to get in his slip stream and sneak past him in the last 10m. Sagan had poor positioning coming into the sprint. He tried to make up for it by pushing Cavendish out of Demare's slipstream. He eventually was able to get Cavendish out of Demare's slipstream by moving him up against the barrier. But that move just meant that Sagan would have had Cavendish on his shoulder at the critical final sprint. Sagan wanted to make Cavendish brake and be completely behind him by positioning himself on the barrier. But Sagan was not fast enough to do this without making contact with Cavendish. Sagan did a bad job setting up his sprint and took it out on Cavendish who was in perfect position.
Some of this I agree with, some of it I think you're reaching a little bit, and some didn't sound anywhere close to what I saw, but here's the deal. Even if everything you said is correct, NONE OF THAT WARRANTS A DISQUALIFICATION FROM A STAGE RACE.
SEDave wrote:
sagan fan wrote:Cavendish was between Sagan and the barrier. How did he manage to knock Sagan towards the barrier? The physics of that just don't make any sense.
Sagan was leaning towards the barriers as Cav was leaning on him. Once Cav goes down Sagan is leaning towards the barriers so he goes towards the barriers a little before he can correct himself.
And a couple of pages back someone was claiming that all cyclists in front have the right to do anything and it's always the guy in back's fault. That's so blatantly wrong in cycling. The rider in front can be DQed or relegated if he deviates from his line (it has to usually be pretty obvious) or obviously causes the rear rider to crash by squishing them into the barriers. To me this was not that situation. Cav did not have a clear lane to move up next to the barriers. And Sagan was moving a bit laterally as the guys around him were. Cav was never level with Sagan and to me this is mostly on Cav. It's a shame the ruled the way they did. I get relegating Sagan for the stage, but the full DQ from the tour seems very harsh.
I see it the same as the poster above. My thoughts were that I understand a stage relegation due to the path Sagan took, but that such a relegation could occur in about every sprint finish and unfortunately the decision on whether to penalize usually seems to depend on whether someone actually went down. So I get moving Sagan to the back of the pack for his aggressive finish. The elbow was nothing, though. That's a reflex that didn't even touch Cav, so those who are saying that Sagan elbowed Mark to the ground are way off base. Really the disqualification from the whole tour is a terrible decision both in terms of the action and in terms of the popularity (the latter, admittedly, shouldn't be a factor in the jury's decision). These are two of the most competitive, aggressivel racers in the sport. Not going to sit here and act surprised that the two got in a tousle resulting in some people going down.
I'm just glad the rider behind Cavendish held his line and ran over Cav's face. Dude's a cheap rider, always bumping and riding rough but never penalized.
The line again wrote:
Read before you link, most in that agree - no DQ but were ok with relegation. This article does not exonerate Sagan from a role in the crash. And yes part of fault of the crash is with Cavendish in my book.[quote]SEDave wrote:
That is exactly what I wrote in my first post (no DQ but were ok with relegation).
I think Caley sums it up pretty well here (with some pictures/GIFs):
http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/commentary/jury-wrong-sagans-dsq_442744Jon Osterman wrote:
Sagan will be on the start line tomorrow. UCI notorious for bad calls.
I actually they thought this would come to fruition. Hard to believe this didn't get overturned.
The TDF is doing it to itself. And with just 3 Americans in the field, with maybe one of them even making it to Paris, I can see this run of 24/7 Tour coverage in the US coming to an end. It will last about as long as Phil, and he's obviously on last legs.
And really, you Cav defenders need to YouTube a few videos about the guy. He's ALWAYS involved in sprint crashes. Just unlucky, I guess!
I am LR wrote:
Entirely Alberto Salazar's fault.
This is correct.
MarathonMind wrote:
Sagan knew he was getting passed.exactly. We know this, and the TDF knows this. Everybody knows this except those determined to irrationally defend Sagan. Because objectively there was no good reason for Sagan to continue moving right when there was more room to his left.
By far there is a super majority of current and former riders who do not think Sagan should have been disqualified. I don't think I am irrational having the same opinion as most other riders.
The punishment Sagan deserved is a whole other argument, but hopefully it's clear to most everyone now that Sagan was indeed the guilty party.
What is this? Just Cav being Cav. I'm content that he is not seriously injured but this clown always seems to be in the middle of these types of events and there is a reason why - it's not coincidence.
This time around he tries to shoot through a closing (quite legally) window and Sagan out of pure reaction sticks his elbow out. What sucks is their position on the road (so close to the rail) but I would highly doubt that Sagan, after nearly 5 hours on the road and pushing his bike up to 60 km/h and in this split second realizes this and knowingly tries to potentially end his career by sending him flying into the barrier
What's interesting is what would have happened if he gets through? Yeah we all know - he jumps on Sagans shoulder and leans all f%$king over him in classic Cav fashion and who knows what happens in this case?
It's hard to have sympathy for this guy and I don't. The UCI should have cracked down on this lunatic a long time ago for his sprint "tactics"
MarathonMind wrote:
The punishment Sagan deserved is a whole other argument, but hopefully it's clear to most everyone now that Sagan was indeed the guilty party.
What kind of lube are you inhaling? 95% of people are siding with Sagan, even the other sprinters after they reviewed the video. Cavendish has a long history of body slamming other people, just like at the London Olympics where he completed body slammed another track cyclist.
salvatorestitchmo wrote:
What's interesting is what would have happened if he gets through? Yeah we all know - he jumps on Sagans shoulder and leans all f%$king over him in classic Cav fashion and who knows what happens in this case?
Exactly. Cavendish has a long history of intentionally head butting and body slamming other people. Unluckily for Cavendish, Sagan is a much better bike handler than he is.
Best part:
Cav was checked at the finish by real doctors, and was not significantly injured.
Then Cav checks the Twitter machine, and magically he has a broken shoulder and can't start the next day.
Who can turn up a photo of Cavendish riding today or tomorrow, holding onto the handlebars like usual (bonus points if he's body-checking another cyclist who happens to be near)?
Jon Osterman wrote:
Jon Osterman wrote:Sagan will be on the start line tomorrow. UCI notorious for bad calls.
I actually they thought this would come to fruition. Hard to believe this didn't get overturned.
A French rider is now is position to take the jersey Sagan would have nabbed. That is why the DQ occurred, and why it wasn't going to be overturned. Vive la France!
Something important that nobody has mentioned so far:
In cycling, when someone bumps into you, it's common practice to lean into that person. It prevents you from both getting taken out by the unbalanced rider. If you both lean into each other you'll both stay up. This is standard practice.
When Sagan felt Cav on him (who cares if he knew who it was), he instinctively leaned into Cav to help them both stay upright. When Cav falls away, you actually see Sagan lose his balance and stop pedaling (this comes with the elbow flail) because Sagan wasn't able to lean into Cav anymore. I think this shows pretty clearly that Sagan was expecting Cav to stay upright and wasn't trying to take him out.
MarathonMind wrote:
People keep mentioning Cav's head bump into Sagan as the first contact. This is true but it happened because Sagan moved rightward into Cav's lane. Cavendish's bike did not move left into Sagan.
Cav didn't have a lane. He was behind Sagan and then tried to squeeze through a space that wasn't there.