Oh noooooooo wrote:He was born XY, was tested XY and will always be XY.... NOT female.
This is exactly the problem with calling him a she/her/female!
He's a male. Period. No more free lunch.
That is exactly the crux of my question. Results of Semenya's chromosome test have never been published anywhere as far as I know. Please provide a link.
Let women sort it out. wrote:
Eleni Schirmer:
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/open-letter-south-african-runner-caster-semenya/story?id=40657017
That's pure gold. SJW gold. Fantastic.
I AM A LIBERAL
And I am against Semenya competing.
It's not a liberal vs conservative issue, it's a track and field issue.
Caster is a woman. That is how she identifies.
She is a woman. And we should accept that.
However, she should not be able to compete with testosterone levels that high.
Mark a T limit ( and other important hormones, that's for scientists to decide). Make people get below that. It's that simple.
Semenya underwent a gyno exam in addition to other exams in 2009. So, she dropped her pants and spread her legs apart and was probed. She passed the medical tests.
"Davies described the tests necessary to determine the gender of an athlete as "an extremely complex procedure" involving medics, scientists, gynaecologists and psychologists, the outcome of which is not expected for several weeks. "The situation today is that we do not have any conclusive evidence that she should not be allowed to run," he said."
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/aug/19/caster-semenya-gender-verification-test
In 2010 Castor was allowed to complete as a woman after the testing done in 2009 was completed. From an AP release in July 9, 2010:
JOHANNESBURG — Track and field's ruling body has cleared world champion runner Caster Semenya to return to her sport immediately.
The 19-year-old South African was sidelined for 11 months after undergoing gender tests following her 800-meter victory at the world championships last August.
The International Association of Athletics Federations said Tuesday it accepts the conclusion of a panel of medical experts that she can compete with "immediate effect."
The statement adds that medical details of her case remain confidential and the IAAF will have no further comment on the matter.
^^^^Yes, the above links are non-conclusive but indicate to me, if anything, that Semenya is XX.
Phil Fondacaro wrote:
^^^^Yes, the above links are non-conclusive but indicate to me, if anything, that Semenya is XX.
You don't have a clue what a gynecologist does. There are not secrets down there. Full exposure is required. Insertion occurs with an internal inspection scope. Can't be XX with a natural vagina. Maybe you're an XX guy with a vagina and not a penis, and you know better.
2009 Gyno wrote:
Semenya underwent a gyno exam in addition to other exams in 2009. So, she dropped her pants and spread her legs apart and was probed. She passed the medical tests.
"Davies described the tests necessary to determine the gender of an athlete as "an extremely complex procedure" involving medics, scientists, gynaecologists and psychologists, the outcome of which is not expected for several weeks. "The situation today is that we do not have any conclusive evidence that she should not be allowed to run," he said."
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/aug/19/caster-semenya-gender-verification-test
Barb McKeever and the Lehigh Valley Marathon race committee didn't find any "conclusive" evidence that Mike Rossi cheated either.
Jokes aside, I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue. Based on the text you quoted, they had not yet run and analyzed all of the necessary tests. Upon completion of these other tests, it was found that Caster was XY, has internal testicles and produces testosterone at the rate of a man. I would say that that's conclusive evidence that Caster should not be allowed to race against women.
The link says that a gynecologist, amongst others, examined Semenya and determined that she was a woman. To me that indicates likely that she is XX and was correctly cleared to compete. Correct my misconception.
-_-_-_-_-_- wrote:...it was found that Caster was XY...I don't believe this has ever been confirmed. Please provide a link.
Phil Fondacaro wrote:
The link says that a gynecologist, amongst others, examined Semenya and determined that she was a woman. To me that indicates likely that she is XX and was correctly cleared to compete. Correct my misconception.
You are correct. I misread your original post. I can't say what the gynecologist fully determined, but I can say Semenya would have been subject to a physical inspection that includes vaginal penetration and internal inspection with a scope.
Phil Fondacaro wrote:
The link says that a gynecologist, amongst others, examined Semenya and determined that she was a woman. To me that indicates likely that she is XX and was correctly cleared to compete. Correct my misconception.
I believe that the IAAF offered to pay for Caster to undergo an orchidectomy to have the testicles removed - both for health as well as fairness issues. Caster refused.
Caster was then forced to take drugs for lowering testosterone levels (even though they were still kept far higher than all of the other female competitors). Caster was no longer competitive at an elite level... until now, since the drugs can no longer be enforced.
-_-_-_-_-_- wrote:
I believe that the IAAF offered to pay for Caster to undergo an orchidectomy to have the testicles removed - both for health as well as fairness issues. Caster refused.
You failed to provide a link to what you believe. Link, please.
We are discovering the inherent flaws in the idea of "women's sports" at the highest level of performance. We know that the very best women are better athletes in many sports than all but less than .1% of men. So the overlap between non-elite men and women is huge. Women's response to performance enhancing drugs (especially testosterone) is stronger than men's and so we find that certain categories of performance records in some sports are heavily populated with performances by women aided by pharmaceuticals, as are the medal standings at the Olympics and World Championships. But we persist in trying to maintain a category of competition that allows "women" to compete, in the face of an increasing understanding that there is in fact a fuzzy genetic boundary between men and women. No matter where you try to draw the line the same issue will arise again. In track and field the problem is particularly acute because of a decades-long history of cheating, and the repetitive breakdown of drug testing standards in the face of continuing advances in medical technology. The root question is what is a "normal" woman? Is Genzebe Dibaba normal? Not really. Elite distance runners from European and Asian gene pools are hopelessly outclassed in their genetic makeup - this is proved by the nearly equally outstanding performance of the Dibaba sisters taken as a group. It would be easy to say that an XXY human can't compete as a woman without being handicapped by hormone treatment. Why wouldn't you say the same about any XX human with the genetic makeup of a Dibaba. In horse racing we put additional weights on the more gifted horses. I wouldn't advocate that, but you're headed in that direction if you wish to single out the XXY configuration for handicapping.
Blah Blah. wrote:
This is tiring.
Rojo is not planning on taking any action against any transgender person. He will not be banning anyone from competing in any competition. He is only expressing an opinion.
Liberals do not believe in freedom of speech. Everyone who does not agree with their agenda is evil and needs to be silenced, imprisoned if necessary.
The hatred and anti-speech is only coming from one side of this issue. Before persons with an XY chromosome were allowed to compete in women's events there was no hatred towards those who thought they should.
Liberals do not give a damn about transgenders. Their agenda is to spread hatred and to vilify those who are not one of them. Their agenda is to rule over others.
You so do not understand liberals. Please stop speaking for anyone but your self.
Rojo is right on this issue though. The Semenya issue is that CAS ruling allows her not to take not drugs that suppress her Testosterone production and clearly she produces quite a bit more T then the other ladies in the race, to the point of making it, not even a race.
Pilot Joe fan wrote:
clearly she produces quite a bit more T then the other ladies in the race
Please provide a link for your claim. Thanks in advance.
A fair solution can and will only be determined by scientific methods, conducted by trained professionals. None of those who will be involved with said science are posting on this message board.
Continuing to argue is a complete waste of time. All the posts in the world will do absolutely nothing to change science and data. Everyone is free to share their opinions, of course. Particularly here on Letsrun. But in this particular case they are quite literally worthless.
So yes, I can see the argument that continued discussion, which will have absolutely no bearing on the final outcome of the situation, does promote a tired and negative agenda. It's not a particularly strong argument but it does make sense when you consider the context of this meaningless thread.
Rojo, you just encountered a typical radical "PC'er" as I refer to them.
They do not have the intelligence, vocabulary, or patience to engage in a meaningdul debate.
They think they are the tolerant ones, but in reality they are intolerant and are bigots themselves.
People like this are not worth your time if they do not want to even hear your views. Sadly there are more and more people out there like this.
Linked Out wrote:
-_-_-_-_-_- wrote:I believe that the IAAF offered to pay for Caster to undergo an orchidectomy to have the testicles removed - both for health as well as fairness issues. Caster refused.
You failed to provide a link to what you believe. Link, please.
You're not going to be satisfied with this, but, whatever... I couldn't find the link that I was thinking of. I believe that it was posted on one of the Semenya threads from around the time of Ross Tucker's blog post below. Most of the information about Semenya has come through leaks as the IAAF is trying hard to keep their findings out of the public realm. They claim that they are respecting Semenya's privacy but, if you were Semenya and the tests revealed that you were in fact female, wouldn't you be sharing the tests with the whole world? It's kind of like the whole Mike Rossi deal, where he claimed to have exonerating photos but refused to release them. At least Semenya isn't claiming that the results are in any way exonerating...
http://scienceofsport.blogspot.ca/2009/09/semenya-and-hermaphroditism.html"That said, the most important thing is to have the internal testes removed. This has nothing to do with performance, but is for health reasons - those testes can very quickly become malignant and lethal. The irony in this drama is that Semenya's life may actually be saved as a result of the sex verification process, because had she not been an athlete, it may never have been detected.
So the first thing is to remove the testes. Once that is done, then I can see no reason why she cannot continue to compete as a female. In fact, the IAAF allow males to have sex changes and then compete as females, provided they serve a 2-year period out of the sport and undergo hormone therapy. Internal testes seem minor in comparison. So Semenya's career need not be over as a result of this.
Finally, I have had a little bit more time to look at the leaks and the articles written in the press Obviously, all discussion is based on these leaks, so it's certainly worth asking how valid they may be.
First of all, I agree with the LetsRun guys, that Mike Hurst is a decent journalist, and also recognize that the first leak way back in August turned out to be accurate as well. So that suggests that the information may well be believable. That said, there are some inconsistencies - the IAAF have stated that the medal will probably NOT be taken back, while the source in the Australian article says it will be. That contradiction undermines one of the two reports - either the source is wrong, or the IAAF are lying, it can't work both ways. That's a question mark.
The second question mark revolves around the implications of the finding. There are two aspects to evaluate - the actual test results, and the IAAF's actions with those results. Even if the source is accurate regarding the test results, knowing that the IAAF will disqualify Semenya is not quite as clear cut. I've covered this above, but the bottom line is that the source in the article appears to be making rather over-simplified statements about what action the IAAF would take, when in fact the IAAF may not know this themselves, pending the review by an independent panel."
realist1234 wrote:
Fans of the sport will never be able to reason with people that are interested in transgender rights because they equate transgender rights with doing anything that anyone wants with regard to gender. I understand their fight, but as a sports fan I believe that a line has to be drawn in some way.
This is a major reason why an outfit such as NBC and any other media outlet needs to tread lightly on this subject. If there's any criticism of Semenya or even the situation, they will hear from the TG rights crowd who are heavily supported by the Gay and Lesbian community.