The 70s were a good time to be #15. The internet hasn't helped #15 improve at all in the past 35 years.
It would be interesting to see how the list of world junior times compares. I imagine that it looks like much smoother, more consistent improvement -- but I'm sure there are surprises and noteworthy departures from the US trend.
Imagine running 9:08.2 in 1975 and only being #50 in the country.
This year was a pretty good year. Most ever under 9:00. Anyone know what the 50th fastest time was?
Based on the times that were run in the Nike Outdoor Nationals earlier this year I am guessing that the HS 2 mile was the fastest High School 2 mile races EVER, in terms of depth. Has there EVER been a HS race with 14 people going UNDER 9:00 ??
Take a look:
1 Matthew Centrowitz 8:41.55
2 Craig Forys 8:44.53
3 Elliott Heath 8:46.12
4 Evan Jager 8:47.59
5 Hassan Mead 8:51.23
6 Paul Springer 8:52.77
7 Sean Keveren 8:55.16
8 Dan Jackson 8:55.60
9 Girma Mecheso 8:56.58
10 Mark Amirault 8:56.84
11 Mike Fout 8:58.79
12 Thomas Gruenewald 8:58.98
13 Robert Finnerty 8:59.15
14 Maxwell O'Donoghue 8:59.19
15 Josh Mathis 9:00.16
16 Luke Puskedra 9:00.25
17 Andrew Hanko 9:01.42
18 Kyle Soloff 9:01.82
19 Dan Chenoweth 9:01.91
20 Emil Heineking 9:03.54
21 Maverick Darling 9:05.21
22 Ryan Collins 9:06.44
23 Ryan Hill 9:07.16
24 Joey Bywater 9:07.50
25 Todd Gulizia 9:07.90
26 Graham Bazell 9:10.10
27 Matthew Mroczynski 9:10.83
Here are the 1 mile results...almost as impressive as the 2
1 Sam Borchers 4:03.33
2 Ben Hubers 4:04.98
3 Evan Jager 4:05.68
4 Matthew Cameron 4:07.32
5 Jake Edwards 4:08.02
6 Vince McNally 4:08.99
7 Charles White 4:09.36
8 Thomas Robbins 4:09.70
9 Paul Springer 4:10.33
10 Brad Surh 4:10.42
11 Robert Finnerty 4:10.49
12 Scott Hilditch 4:10.78
13 Paul Hilsen 4:11.04
14 Girma Mecheso 4:11.71
Not to take anything away from that depth, I think that is a composite of a few races. Probably the deepest meet ever, though.
11 broke 9 in heat 1, 3 broke 9 in heat 2.
This one was right up there:
I'd like a color copy please:
It's nice to see the surge... it sucks to have been in the "train less run faster" generation. We wasted our primes listening to fools.
Anyone care to overlay the number of high school aged kids (14-18) in those years? My guess is that there were more high school age kids during peak years and less in down years. Your late baby boomers would be reaching high school age in the 70s/80s and then their kids in the late 90s early 00s.
Alan
Please send me one dear, my boys will love it!
netartsbayfish (at) oregoncoast.com
Runningart2004 wrote:
Anyone care to overlay the number of high school aged kids (14-18) in those years? My guess is that there were more high school age kids during peak years and less in down years. Your late baby boomers would be reaching high school age in the 70s/80s and then their kids in the late 90s early 00s.
Alan, the number are milers or 2 milers per 100,000 participants. That is an "overlay."
My bad...didn't read thoroughly.
Alan
Seeing what everyone else's times are (which is a lot easier now with the internet) can make a significant difference in a few different ways.
On one hand you find out that there is a bigger world out there and you're not a big deal if you are a 4:30 miler or 10:00 2 miler.
From another perspective, if you are already pretty good but didn't know how good because you couldn't see how you stacked up against the rest of the US, you might be more motivated to work hard when you find out where you rank. Like today I see that I was in the top 50 my SR year when all this time I thought maybe I was top 500. Holy shit. I wish I had known that 20 years ago.
I experienced this on a smaller scale when I was in HS. There was a state annual list that I didn't find out about until I was a JR. My times as a soph were 4:40 and 10:08. At district of JR XC season I beat a few guys who ended up in the top 20 in the state (I didn't make state XC that year). Heading into JR track I got a copy of the annual and found out 3 or 4 guys I beat were 9:20/4:20 guys. I was definitely more pumped for the coming track season after seeing that. I didn't quite run 4:20 or 9:20 that year but I worked my butt off that year thinking those times were realistic.
I was part of the late 80s nadir. What killed us in those years was very low mileage and high intensity. The Brooks Johnson method. It was very in vogue to do a bunch of fancy speedworks and everyone was afraid of doing more than 50mpw. I ran my times off 25-35mpw, very high intensity speed, and taking most of the winter off. I'd love to get another shot at it and run 70-90mpw instead of the crap I was doing.
Sorry nothing really to add other than amazingly pain staking work Malmo great stuff thanks for posting with your analysis.
a copy to jhamilto@mines.edu would be sweet
bump.
An update.
love the list and the thread...great analysis by Malmo and others.
I have another possible explanation of the great slow down of the 80's-90's (this futher extends the internet theory for reversing the trend). In the very late 70's to early 80's all the records were essentilly wiped clean to many high school runners (as the records of 1 mile, 2 mile were no longer kept and replaced with 3200m and 1600m). A kid running in those days could set the state record and be well below the times of their predecesors.
For example, I live in Kansas...at our state track meet in the offcial program Jim Ryun's mile times are not even listed...it is as if he never ran them. We have kids runnig 4:20 and getting the state record. The internet may have woken them up to the facts that much faster times have been run...
One solution that i would like to see is for the English reocords to be converted and counted as the record until someone betters the conversion...so what did Ryun run? 3:58.XX for the full mile...until some Kansas kid run sub 3:57 for 1600m - Ryun's record should stand and be listed in the program as the state record. this example is to the extreme, but looking at each class in our state 1/2 of the distance state records are not really state records (because someone in the 70's went faster).
jerrry wrote:
love the list and the thread...great analysis by Malmo and others.
I have another possible explanation of the great slow down of the 80's-90's (this futher extends the internet theory for reversing the trend). In the very late 70's to early 80's all the records were essentilly wiped clean to many high school runners (as the records of 1 mile, 2 mile were no longer kept and replaced with 3200m and 1600m). A kid running in those days could set the state record and be well below the times of their predecesors.
Huh? That should've given preps in the 80s-90s and advantage.
Dude, what are you talking about? I highly doubt that anyone is running a 4:20 mile in Kansas and thinking they've run the state record, let alone their school record.http://www.catchitkansas.com/global/Story.asp?s=6929515http://www.catchitkansas.com/Global/story.asp?S=6950282
jerrry wrote:
love the list and the thread...great analysis by Malmo and others.
I have another possible explanation of the great slow down of the 80's-90's (this futher extends the internet theory for reversing the trend). In the very late 70's to early 80's all the records were essentilly wiped clean to many high school runners (as the records of 1 mile, 2 mile were no longer kept and replaced with 3200m and 1600m). A kid running in those days could set the state record and be well below the times of their predecesors.
For example, I live in Kansas...at our state track meet in the offcial program Jim Ryun's mile times are not even listed...it is as if he never ran them. We have kids runnig 4:20 and getting the state record. The internet may have woken them up to the facts that much faster times have been run...
One solution that i would like to see is for the English reocords to be converted and counted as the record until someone betters the conversion...so what did Ryun run? 3:58.XX for the full mile...until some Kansas kid run sub 3:57 for 1600m - Ryun's record should stand and be listed in the program as the state record. this example is to the extreme, but looking at each class in our state 1/2 of the distance state records are not really state records (because someone in the 70's went faster).
here is another small factor specifically regarding state records (probably only applies to a few state like mine - Kansas) Doubt if this was a national trend?
UP to about 1979 our state meet ran the 2 mile on Fri and the 1 mile and other finals on Sat...for some "stupid" reason they changed this in the early 80's so that all finals were on the same day...so a good distance kid running at the end of the season in peak shape could not open up and bust 2 fresh races...perfect example is our top 3200 meter runner last year Lane Boyer (9:07ish PR) his junior year jogged to win the 3200 (somewhere over 10:00) because the 1600, 800 were later in his day.
However, the next year the "brain surgeons" that run our state meet finally moved the 3200's back to Friday (a move I have been waiting for 25 years) an he ran 9:0-something because now like the runners of the 70's he had a full days rest before his 1600/800 the next day.
again most elite runners will have ample opportunity to run fast throughout the year - so this doesn't really apply to why the 80-90's times would be so much slower...only why the times at specific state meet/records could appear to exaggerate the decline.