The data is easy to collect. Take a look at where all the 1.41 and 1.42 800m performers ran their personal records. I estimate that 80 percent of them ran thier PRs after a series of 800m races in the days leading up to their PRs.
The data is easy to collect. Take a look at where all the 1.41 and 1.42 800m performers ran their personal records. I estimate that 80 percent of them ran thier PRs after a series of 800m races in the days leading up to their PRs.
Half Mile Man wrote:
You really have no clue. NW from NZ said that his speed training to peak for championship races coupled with three 1500m races with sprint finishes at the championships prevents him from running a fast 1500m AFTER the championships.
He says three rounds, but he's referring to all three races at the championship, including the final. You lack the prior knowledge to make the proper inference.
When he said three rounds of racing he was referring to the 1500m heat, semi, and final. Those three rounds of racing dull his performance on the circuit later in the season.
Didn't stop Ovett breaking the 1500m WR after running 6 rounds in Moscow.
Didn't stop Coe running a 3:32 with a 12.5 last 100 after 7 races in 9 days in 84.
Didn't stop Cram (3:30.1) and Coe (3:29.7) after running 6 rounds in Europeans in 86.
Didn't stop ElG and Morceli running 3:29's after the Atlanta Olympics.
The best guys are conditioned to reach a peak at champs and still be able to run at best after, as long as they don't go to the well too often and give themselves some recovery.
800 guys can run 3 or 4 within a week to 10 days and maintain peak form, especially in Championship years, as that's exactly what their training has been conditioning their bodies to do.
Half Mile Man wrote:You really have no clue
considering the nonsense you have mostly written, you have even less clue
NW from NZ said that his speed training to peak for championship races coupled with three 1500m races with sprint finishes at the championships prevents him from running a fast 1500m AFTER the championships
learn to think
each successive round is taking more out of him for next round
by the time he reaches the final, he is nowhere as fresh as before entering the championships
assuming he was good for a 1-off 3'29-flat in a perfect race entering champs, even a coupla prelims with the requisite fast finish means he wouda probably been good for "only 3'30 flat if running a 1-off on circuit rather than final
the quality of field is so much higher nowdays that the prelims take lot more out of guys than 30+y ago as they have to kick so much harder at the finish in prelims
He says three rounds, but he's referring to all three races at the championship, including the final
learn to think
each race takes something out of you for next race no matter how fit you are
that is logic
if he was 3'29.0 entering championships, he may be good for 3'29-low/mid after 1st round & maybe 3'30.0 after semi
You lack the prior knowledge to make the proper inference
what this nonsense is supposed to mean ??
40+y of watching championships has told me that finals are run on what vestiges of energy the guys have left after prelims
When he said three rounds of racing he was referring to the 1500m heat, semi, and final. Those three rounds of racing dull his performance on the circuit later in the season
learn to think
they also dull each successive race in a championships
see likely 3'29.0 to 3'29-low/mid to 3'30-flat
The world record, virtually every national record, and virtually every 1.41 and 1.42 performers' PR was set after a close series of 800m races
nonsense
Kip's best shape by far was his zurich 1'41.2 off suicidal 23.0 / 48.3, worth probably 1'40-low/mid off a sensible 24-low/49-low
that run was 5 days after his 800 final in athens, where he only ran final in 1'43.3
he shouda been capable of hugely better than this seeing as zurich showed 1'40-low/mid shape, but rounds of 1'46/1'45/1'45 on successive days & then 2 days rest for final clearly took lot out of him
it is even conceivable that if he hadn't run the championships & aimed only for zurich, he may have gone 1'40-flat
as for cruz, it is beyond impossible that he wouda been anything more than 1/2-dead lining up for koln in '84 !!!
he ran in few days before, a virtually solo 2'14-flat with an inept pacer who ran away at 400, then 2 runs of 1'42-low/mid, each with some extra run on bends
i saw all 4 of those races & was shocked he even lined up in koln !!!!
before the race, i was thinking running 1'44+ wouda been a huge performance
to run 1'41.77 was beyond belief !!!
if he'd skipped those 3 races before koln & run it fully rested, i have 0 doubt he wouda run 1'41-flat
we can wait for letsrun to interview him as he likely will oblige as had strong US connections
Misinterpreting a quote from a 1500m runner and presenting outlying data won't convince anyone you're right
eh ???
no misinterpretation here
just applying logic to the quote & further application of 40+y of watching elite races, something you clearly haven't done for former & likely not for latter as shown by lack of historical insight
Peer Mediator wrote:Didn't stop Ovett breaking the 1500m WR after running 6 rounds in Moscow
weeks later
he ran 13'27 & 13'31 as his next 2 races after moscow !
he clearly didn't want a fast 1500 after games & settled for nonsense 5ks, when he couda easily have had 1500s arranged for him
more impressive was that he ran 3'51 on 22nd, 3'52 on 24th & then just 2/7 later the 3'31.3wr
if he'd skipped those mile races & aimed for koblenz only, he probably wouda run 3'30-low
Didn't stop Coe running a 3:32 with a 12.5 last 100 after 7 races in 9 days in 84
that was full 11 days after games
it was his only serious race after games
Didn't stop Cram (3:30.1) and Coe (3:29.7) after running 6 rounds in Europeans in 86
cram had 5 days rest between championships & brussels - some rest time
coe had full 1 week rest for his 3'29
Didn't stop ElG and Morceli running 3:29's after the Atlanta Olympics
both hicham & morceli ran 3'29 before & after games, both with rest before races
The best guys are conditioned to reach a peak at champs and still be able to run at best after, as long as they don't go to the well too often and give themselves some recovery
it is much harder to run fast after majors now as the fields have highest quality in history over 1500 & also likely over 800
the current crop have a 3'26 guy, a 3'27, 4 guys at 3'28 !!! & numerous 3'29 guys who coud all enter a 1500 championships
there is also sapping diamond league which means many of the guys have run tremendous number of hard races prior to majors, leaving little/nothing energy for post-majors meets
800 guys can run 3 or 4 within a week to 10 days and maintain peak form, especially in Championship years, as that's exactly what their training has been conditioning their bodies to do
nonsense
each race in a major takes something out you for next round
Kip has strong claim to greatest synthetic track 800 guy of all-time, with Rudy the only other contender, the difference between them being negligible
he was at peak in zurich with 1'41.2 off suicidal 23.0/48.3, which anyone with a clue woud know wouda been a 1'40-low/mid off "usual" 24-low/49-low
he also proved earlier that year to being an incredible solo runner, with 1'43.9iWR & then 1'42.6iWR !!!
in wc before zurich, he ran 1'46.3 followed on successive days by 1'45.5 then 1'46.1
then he had 2 days rest for final
he was in at least as good shape as zurich just 5 days later as for final & with his incredible solo ability he couda blasted a 1'40-high/1'41-solo in final if as you contend, rounds take nothing out of 800 guys
he ran pathetic 1'43.3 in final !!!
why on earth did he run 2++ s slower in final than what he was capable of in just a solo run alone ???
give another reason apart from "rounds don't tire you in a 800" for his rubbish clocking in final ???
offer it...
Sarcasm alert! wrote:Juantorena chopped a HUGE amount of his '76 record the following year.
1:43.44 down from 1:43.50.
i suggest you look up the circumstances
he ran that in sofia, which was heavily polluted east european capital in world student games
he jogged 1st lap in 51.4 then blasted last one in 52.0
the temperatures for that meet were over 100F !!!
temperate weather in clean air venue off fast 1st lap he was looking at 1'42-mid
ventolin^3 wrote:
he jogged 1st lap in 51.4 then blasted last one in 52.0
Ah, the old negative split with a slower second lap. Do you know how time works mathematically?
Do the math:
Calculate what percentage of the world's 1:41 and 1:42 performers PRs were recorded after a close series of races/rounds.
That's how researchers collect data and make conclusions.
They don't look at isolated events and make sweeping generalizations.
One quote from a 1500m runner is invalid. We are talking about the 800m.
This is why no one ever agrees with you. Your points are unsupported with proper data, and you stubbornly refuse to budge when more compelling evidence is presented.
ventolin^3 wrote:
he jogged 1st lap in 51.4 then blasted last one in 52.0
hello ventobongo-3!
51.4 is jogging? but he blasted(!) 52.0!
maths expert wrote:
ventolin^3 wrote:
he jogged 1st lap in 51.4 then blasted last one in 52.0
Ah, the old negative split with a slower second lap
no
learn to read
it was a +ve split but not "gold standard" 2s +ve splits which means there was more to come off from a faster 1st lap
Do you know how time works mathematically?
eh ?
what is this ?
i have an empirical formula for what any splits in a 800 differ from "gold standard" 2s +ve splits run instead, which history, etc tells us is the fastest way of running a 800 - go check the splits for 1'40.91WR
difference from 2s +ve splits = [ ( 2nd lap - 1st lap - 2 ) * (1/3) ]
for caballo who split 51.4 / 52.0 for 1'43.4WR, the formula says his time off 2s +ve splits wouda been quicker by :
( 52.0 - 51.4 - 2 ) * (1/3) = 0.46s
therefore his clocking shouda been 1'43.4 - 0.46 =
1'42.9+
which means his "ideal" splits shouda been : 50.4+ / 52.4+
after presumed rounds in sofia in temperatures in excess of 100F !!!
J.R.. wrote:
ventolin^3 wrote:
he jogged 1st lap in 51.4 then blasted last one in 52.0
51.4 is jogging?
yes
it is with 2s +ve "gold standard", the split for a 51.4 + ( 51.4 + 2 ) = 1'44.8
which for a guy of caballo's calibre was slow
but he blasted(!) 52.0!
yes
using above, a 52.0, 2nd lap, is what woud normally be 2nd lap expected in
a :
( 52.0 - 2 ) for 1st lap = 50.0
which with 52.0 lap for 2nd one = 1'42.0
therefore 52.0 is blasting a 2nd lap in that era
Now now wrote:Don't try to get Rudisha to play your silly games. The WR was set after rounds and like Bruce Hornsby once said. "That's just the way it is"
that is utter nonsense
no consideration of history
Kipketer who was very similar calibre to Rudy, when in 1’40-low/mid shape in ‘97 coud only run 1’43.3 in the final after 3 consecutive prelims prior
therefore rounds took something out of Kip - helluva lot
Rudy ran 1’45.9 on day 1, then 1’44.35 the next day, then 2 days rest for final
that 1’44.35 was iirc, the 4th fastest semi ever run, but I will have to do some checking
only Cruz & Koech were significantly faster in ‘84 semi with 1’43.82/1’44.12, whilst aman ran 1'44.34 in '12
the prelims obviously cost huge amount Cruz as he only ran 1’43.00 in final & he ran 1’41.77 later on last vestiges of energy
a reasonable guess is that the 2 prelims, especially that 1’44.35, took something like 0.25 - 0.5s out of Rudy for final compared to a fully-rested 1-off
& that doesn’t include the suicidal pace he set off in 23.4 & no drafting !!!
It completely considers history. Rudisha set his record in the past and it is now part of history.
Fermin Caucho ran faster than Willis. Spain is Europe last time I checked.
You truly would know shit from clay if you were eating it.