Rosa Associates and Volare Sports suspended 6 months

smell the coffee, wrote:

....Pointing out that there is a lot of money involved hardly makes doping seem less plausible.

Drugs are anathema to athletics. Who cares what doped up athlete beats what doped up athlete? Who cares if someone sets a record as a result of drug use?

That's an important point. The potential for substantial financial gain, coupled with the fact that PED users can get away with it, almost guarantees that cheating WILL take place. It's akin to a law of economics. When economics experts say there is a "law" of supply and demand, they're not referring to an actual codified law that says prices must rise when supply fails to meet demand. It's more like a statistical observation: every time an item is in demand but there is not much of it around, the price goes up. It's just human nature: if I can get more for my product, I will do so. If fresh water, for example, is in high demand, there may be a few who feel bad about raising prices for this basic necessity, but they will soon get left behind. Similarly, if a situation exists where a lot of money can be made in road racing, and somebody realizes that they could get their athletes to take a larger share of the purses by cheating and getting away with it, it WILL happen. You can't just expect to be able to rely on sportsmanship and everybody being "good guys"; it's basically as if a vacuum has been created, with predictable results. As long as cheating has benefits and can be gotten away with, you can assume that it is taking place.

right, then name me say 10 Kenyan men who have run, say, 2:07 or faster and tested positive. And 10 positive women in the 2:25 range. Should be easy for you to bring up those names for me. I'll wait.

Or if you want...sub 13 for 5k, sub 27 for 10k. And maybe sub 3:35 for 1500. or is that too easy?

This is your chance to prove me wrong! Run to it!

To my knowledge on the men, Kisorio is the best and Jeptoo on the women. Which is awful, but I'm waiting for more evidence, as should we all.

As for baseball, I couldn't care less what happens in that sport and have no opinion other than generally hoping the Yankees and A Rod lose.

And if you read the entirety of my posts you will notice that I am not denying that there are cheaters. Financial gain has driven the cheaters as much as it has driven the non cheaters. What I am stating is that you cannot suspend entire management agencies because of the actions of a minority...yes an overwhelming minority.

And pointing the finger at a Patrician Monk who has dedicated his life to serving Kenyans and has taken a vow of poverty is idiocy at its finest. Some of his athletes chipped in 3 years ago to get him a reliable vehicle, but other than that, where is his financial incentive? Do you think he will be retiring to Monaco anytime soon?

You are free to believe what you like. But there has not been one piece of evidence presented on this thread that justifies the actions of AK.

Of course a sports federation can suspend entire management agencies if there is compelling reason to suspect misconduct at those agencies. And the agencies can take the matter to CAS.

It is the agencies that has been suspended. The athletes (who ahsn't tested positive) are free to compete and they are free to seek other agents.

Rite Jeptoo: 2:18

Lydia Cheromei: 2:21 (47:02 15k)

Pamela Chepchumba: 2:25

Susan Chepkemei: 2:21

Flomena Chepchirchir:2:23:00

Nguriatukei Rael Kiyara: 2:23:47

Julia Mumbi Muraga: 2:26:00

Wilson Loyanae: 2:05:37

Mathew Kisorio: 58:46, 12:57

Moses KURGAT: 2:08:40

Cosmas Ndeti: 2:07:15

Charles Nyakundi: 2:08:07

Ronald Kipchumba RUTTO: 2:09:17

William Tanui: 3:30

Musa Amer Obaid/Moses Kipkirui: 8:07 steeple (Qatari Nationality)

Well shucks agip. I could only find 15 runners instead of the required 20. Looks like you're right. Doping is not a problem at all. Never mind the fact that these athletes were turned up through an incomplete testing process, which doesn't adequately test many, many more. Never mind that this doesn't include those b-level dopers, which you say aren't any indication of a bigger problem. It is also just a list off of Wikipedia, which is incomplete. For example, missing Daniel Komen's positive for caffeine (later reinstated, for a "genetic defect"...). It also doesn't include any emigrants (except for Kipkiui, who I recognized).

Good post, what about the names of those ~25 Kenyan athletes who had off-the-charts blood-test results yet were never tested appropriately? Will these ever be released to the public or will they remain swept under rug by the IAAF?

clerk wrote:

For example, missing Daniel Komen's positive for caffeine (later reinstated, for a "genetic defect"...).

Caffeine's not even on WADA's list anymore. And I wouldn't get too worked up about Cosmas Ndeti and William Tanui turning in positive tests for ephedrine. Not exactly stanozolol or EPO.

You seem to have moved the goal posts or are unable to read.

well I grabbed four names clerk and none of them mean much.

Cheromei was nabbed for a - wait for it - pregnancy inducing drug

Chepchumba was in 2003 - bans 12 years ago don't count for anything.

Chepkemai was nailed for an asthma drug - she was pregnant and had pneumonia and her doc prescribed a banned drug. I'll give her a pass. You won't? Really?

Tanui was in 1993 - 22 years ago - really, clerk?

Do I have to go through each name? Do you really think your citations are good ones beyond Jeptoo and Kisorio?

Be an adult here and don't just shoot from the hip in gotcha claims.

My statement stands: in the current era there have been only two top end kenyans who have tested poz (Jeptoo Kisorio) - and that is not enough evidence to infer that a large number of Kenyan A listers are dopers.

1. Which other countries have in the current era had two top end long distance runners test positive?

2. Are those countries clean?

Kenya was by the best account we have, the leaked lists of suspicious blood values from IAAF, the second dirtiest country in endurance athletics 2003-2008. What is supposed to have happend after that? To the rest of the world the bio passport happend, but the bio passport is still not effective in Kenya or Ethiopia.

other countries - recently obviously Russia and Turkey on the womens side. Cant' swear to it, but probably Spain and Ukraine if you drop a notch in quality. Probably Morocco, no? Bahrain/Quatar?

that's off the top of my head guesses - without any research. But your point is a good one - not many top distance people have tested positive recently. Which is an evidence point that guys like clerk choose to disregard.

I don't know enough to comment on the leaked blood values. but E africa was the most tested place in the world by IAAF in 2012 (not national testing orgs), so maybe there is a stat correlation between positives and # of tests. But I don't know enough of how it works to comment.

The top 10 nations tested in 2012 were as follows:

nation / no. tests / % of total tests

KEN 348 tests (14.7%)

RUS 336 (14.2%)

USA 222 (9.4%)

ETH 171 (7.2%)

JAM 126 (5.3%)

UKR 94 (4.0%)

BLR 82 (3.5%)

TUR 74 (3.1%)

GER 72 (3.0%)

MAR 62 (2.6%)

Drop Lydia Cheromei from the list unless you consider Clomifene a performance enhancer.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

clerk wrote:

For example, missing Daniel Komen's positive for caffeine (later reinstated, for a "genetic defect"...).

Caffeine's not even on WADA's list anymore. And I wouldn't get too worked up about Cosmas Ndeti and William Tanui turning in positive tests for ephedrine. Not exactly stanozolol or EPO.

Clerk, you found a list from Wikipedia which doesn't explain anything.

I want to give you some info about some of the athletes in the list.

LYDIA CHEROMEI : was banned for a pharmac against sterility, because she didn't inform IAAF about the assumption. This doping was so equivalent a "cheat" for enhancing her performances that, 7 months later, she had the baby. In this case, AK was guilty because didn't support the appel of Lydia, who asked to cancel the sanction, giving all the evidences about the reason of her therapy (so, not doping), when she came back running, two years later.

MOSES KURGAT : he was banned because positive to a medicine he took directly in Korea, two days before his Marathon (he was 3rd in 2:08:40). He had very strong cough, went to a local pharmacy with the translator, didn't understand the local Language (and the phramacist was not informed by the translator he was an athlete), and took the pharmac they gave him. After the race, during the antidoping procedure, he showed the package of the medicine bought 2 days before the race. IAAF accepted the "bona fide", looking at the evidence, and the first ban was for one year only. After this, AK enhanced to 2 years the period of ban, for showing they fight doping......... and of course responsibles were foreigners agents !

RONALD RUTTO : He took EPO before winning Linz Marathon in 2:11 (so, two minutes slower than his PB). He was cheated by a pharmacist in Iten (who usually went to drink with him every night, till when they were drunk...) who told him to get a medicine for increasing his recovery.

The pharmacist was the owner of the pharmacy "Glory", and myself informed AK about the situation, but nothing happened....

MUSA AMER : he is another case of big stupidity, but not of cheating.

I was the head coach of Qatar when the fact happened. Musa Amer was not in training with me, but with another Moroccan coach (called Driss). They went to train in Ifran, and he had a stress fracture. He couldn't train for 8 weeks. During that period, he took some steroid because one local doctor told him could help the process of recovering from the fracture.

He never supposed antidoping could go there for testing an athletes not competing, but the pool of doctors arrived Ifran for testing all the best Moroccan athletes, and, finding him (4th in OG in Athens), they tested him too. As Qatar Federation, we documented to IAAF his situation, giving the MRI and scintigraphy of two weeks before the antidoping test, and again the MRI and scintigraphy of 3 weeks after the antidoping test (he was still injured), showing he could not train during all that long period.

The answer of IAAF was : "we well understand his goal was not to use steroids for enhancing his performances. But he did a mistake : rules are rules, and he must be banned two years because was stupid".

RAEL KIYARA : I don't know well what happened. But I know that, two years before her positive test, she was with the management of Gianni Demadonna, and I had the opportunity to follow the training of her Group (the coach for Gianni is my follower Gabriele Nicola,also coach of Mary Keitany). She was very worry about her health, because had a diagnosis of a cancer in her breast. She stopped running for more than one year, and took medicine for that reason. One and half year later, with another manager, she ran under 2:24, but really I don't know if she took some PED or was positive for the medicines she had to get for her old problem.

A list doesn't give the full picture of the situation. If is true there are doped athletes that are not caught by antidoping, it's also true there are "officially doped" athletes who are completely innocent under moral point of view, but did some mistake, for ignorance of the rules.

That's the reason because, in spite of the number of doped Kenyan athletes, absolutely it's wrong to speak about "widespread doping" in Kenya. But it's obvious AK needs to start a more strong educational campaign, because the cultural level of the most part of runners of middle level in the Country (who could be of top level in every other Country) is not very high, and can be easy to cheat them, if there are doctors, pharmacists and some manager looking at personal advantages only, without moral values.

grazie, Renato

And clerk, I am not a blind to facts guy - for example I have completely given up on sprinting because there have been so many poz tests that I can't believe anything anymore. The evidence came in, I believed it, and I changed my view.

The evidence in E African and US distance running simply isn't there. You're just guessing, connecting the dots, whatever. Which is fun, but it's not a great way to describe the world as it is.

Kenyans on IAAFs list of currently sanctioned athletes:

CHEPKORIR Emily Perpetua · Norandrosterone 26.01.14

JELAGAT Liliane · EPO 29.06.13

JEPKORIR Peris · Norandrosterone 05.05.13

KANDIE Philip · Testosterone & Norandrosterone 26.01.14

KIMAIYO Isaac Kemboi · Norandrosterone 19.05.13

KIMETTO Viola Chelangat · Norandrosterone 01.12.13

KIPLIMO Jacqueline Nytepi · Norandrosterone 07.04.13

MURAGA Julia Mumbi · EPO 14.09.14

MUTAI Julius Kiprono · Norandrosterone 01.12.13

NDIRANGU Alice · Methandienone & Clenbuterol 16.12.12

NYANKABARIA James Maunga · Norandrosterone 02.12.12

SEREM Benjamin Kiprop · Nandrolone 10.11.13

SITIENEI Rita Jeptoo · EPO 25.09.14

TANUI Stephen Kibet · Norandrosterone 26.01.14

Other recent cases;

Elizabeth Jelat Chelagat, Norandrosterone

Flomena Chipchirchir

Benjamin Kipkurui Cheruiyot

Joyce Jemutai Kiplimo

Stephen Kibet Chelal, Methylprednisolone

Joseph Mutinda

+ one or more cases pending from the Volare stable, one of them probably winner of "two major marathons" in the last year

Here are some more:

BASWETI, Jynocel Onyancha – Boldenone 22/01/2012

BIWOTT, Salome Jerono – Norandrosterone 28/10/2012

ERUPE, Wilson Loyanae – EPO 04/01/2013

KISORIO, Mathew Kipkoech – Norandrosterone 14/06/2012

KIYARA, Rael – Norandrosterone 29/04/2012

WAIRURI, Anthony – Norandrosterone 28/10/2012

MWENDIA MUTHONI, Bernard – Norandrosterone 06/01/2013

Keep in mind the process for handling a failed test. The federation and athlete are first notified, then the test can be challenged and / or a B sample analyzed. AK has probably been informed of additional positives from the Rosa and Volare camps, but can't release names until the cases are adjudicated. The Volare ban is troubling because, unlike Rosa, they haven't had high-profile positives. That may change. Look for Volare athletes withdrawing from upcoming marathons as a possible indicator of who's getting pinched.

VAcoach wrote:

You are free to believe what you like. But there has not been one piece of evidence presented on this thread that justifies the actions of AK.

agip wrote:

My statement stands: in the current era there have been only two top end kenyans who have tested poz (Jeptoo Kisorio) - and that is not enough evidence to infer that a large number of Kenyan A listers are dopers.

So again, you are deciding to choose what evidence to acknowledge. too long ago- So what? There is no evidence that the culture has change since 1993, or 2003. Well, they aren't testing positive for EPO[\i] So stimulants aren't doping? Steroids aren't doping? Further, we know that some of these runners were taking EPO, and were only caught for other drugs the were taking. well, they aren't A listers Well, they are, for one. Two, what is the physiological difference between a 2:07:59 guy and a 2:08:01 guy that makes one benifit from doping and the other, not? You "A-list" is arbitrary, as arbitrary as my expansion to sub 2:26/2:09.

Each time we have a conversation, you nitpick. You're right. Rita Jeptoo's and Matthew Kisorio's positives are not enough to implicate wide spread doping in Kenya.

But, let's sum up everything at once.

Those two postives you care about, the other 13 positives I listed, the other 15 that have been banned, the 25 Kenyan names on the IAAF suspicious values list, testimony from athletes about the use of doping, information from journalists about the prevalence and influence of doping doctors, evidence posted here about the influence of domestic doping doctors, and evidence from here and elsewhere that "B-level" doping is a problem, all together point to widespread doping in Kenya.

The counterpoint that "A-listers" haven't tested positive is irrelevant, because we know that the inadequacy of doping tests casts out the reliability of those tests to prove a negative.

The counterpoint that "Elite Kenyans" don't benefit from EPO has not been proven.

The counterpoint that they're doping with only minor drugs isn't actually a counterpoint; doping is doping. Also, we go back to the fact that getting caught for a minor drug doesn't exclude the possibility of something higher-octane.

The counter point that we have "moved-on" from the dirty 1990's and 2000's has not been proven.

The counterpoint that it is not just a Kenyan problem, but a Russian, US, Turkish, athletics problem doesn't make the problem in any of those individual countries acceptable.

So, we're left with a conclusion (from all of this) that there is widespread doping in Kenya. Until you can show that those witnesses, coaches, athletes, journalists are wrong, or you can show the ability of tests to prove cleanliness, or you can prove that top athletes would not benefit from EPO, or that the culture now is drastically different than the doping culture of 90's and 00's, then we are still left with the conclusion of widespread doping in Kenya (including the top).

All evidence suggest massive doping in Kenya.

1) More distance-runner positive tests for steroids, stimulants and blood-boosters than any other nation.

2) Very lax testing.

3) Top athletes with personal 'on-the-ground' knowledge have said doping is 'rampant'.

4) Investigative reporting has shown many kenyans willing and ready to provide doping products to anyone at low cost. They have also have medical records of and connections to top kenyan athletes.

5) top european coaches/agents with doping connections have had several top kenyans under them test positive.

These are irrefutable facts.